Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

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TB
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Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by TB »

Sorry to post here as I don’t live in Ohio anymore, recently moved to Oklahoma. I enjoyed living in Ohio but when I moved here the gun laws are so different. I realized this is what it means by a free state. Differences I have noticed.
* no need for CCW here, constitution carry concealed and open carry
* can carry any knife on you that you want including switchblades
* you don’t see “no gun” signs as they carry no weight here, worst they can do is ask you to
leave
* castle doctrine not only applies to home and vehicle but any place you have a legal right
to be
* No notifying law enforcement you are carrying, in fact they tell you “not” to tell them
* Brandishing your weapon to deescalate a situation is legal and encouraged

Hopefully Ohio can get to a point like this one day and we can all enjoy freedom, the way our forefathers meant it to be.
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by TB »

Oh yeah, and contrary to politicians even with all these loose restrictions blood is not flowing in the streets.
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by machinegunkelly »

And a very robust state organization working to protect what freedoms they have. OK2A , president Don Spencer.
Monthly meetings held around the state. Watch some of their you tube videos. .
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by JustaShooter »

Things have changed in Ohio recently:

We now have unlicensed carry for qualified persons (21 and over with nothing in your background that would prevent you from getting a license).
Knives, razors, and other cutting instruments are no longer considered deadly weapons (unless used as one) so can be legally carried concealed.
Ohio now has "Stand Your Ground" to cover places Castle Doctrine does not.
No longer need to notify law enforcement you are carrying unless asked.

However,
Signs still carry the force of law, so you do still see "no guns" signs in certain areas, especially leftist metro areas.
And brandishing your firearm can still get you in trouble unless you would have been justified to use deadly force.

So, many improvements, but still more that can be done.
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by Brian D. »

machinegunkelly wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 2:41 am And a very robust state organization working to protect what freedoms they have. OK2A , president Don Spencer.
Monthly meetings held around the state. Watch some of their you tube videos. .
MGK
JustaShooter, you got to admit we don't have THAT going on with our organization these days. Not sure how engaged Buckeye Firearms Association is with the Statehouse at this time. Less than in the past, I'd guess.
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by JustaShooter »

Brian D. wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 8:16 am
machinegunkelly wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 2:41 am And a very robust state organization working to protect what freedoms they have. OK2A , president Don Spencer.
Monthly meetings held around the state. Watch some of their you tube videos. .
MGK
JustaShooter, you got to admit we don't have THAT going on with our organization these days. Not sure how engaged Buckeye Firearms Association is with the Statehouse at this time. Less than in the past, I'd guess.
Agreed. I don't know how engaged BFA is in the Statehouse either, but for sure they have zero engagement with like-minded individuals outside of it.
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by M-Quigley »

I know that Ohio is not as good as other states but the gun laws are moving (slowly) in the right direction, and I'm just glad I don't live in NJ anymore.
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by Bearable »

JustaShooter wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 7:38 am Things have changed in Ohio recently:

...Knives, razors, and other cutting instruments are no longer considered deadly weapons (unless used as one) so can be legally carried concealed...
I can tell you from first hand knowledge that the courts considers a pocket knife or penknife a weapon and will not comply with Ohio law.
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by JustaShooter »

Bearable wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 2:28 pm
JustaShooter wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 7:38 am Things have changed in Ohio recently:

...Knives, razors, and other cutting instruments are no longer considered deadly weapons (unless used as one) so can be legally carried concealed...
I can tell you from first hand knowledge that the courts considers a pocket knife or penknife a weapon and will not comply with Ohio law.
As far as carrying into secure areas like courthouses, I imagine not. They tend to prohibit all weapons, not just deadly weapons. Always have, and likely always will.
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by Brian D. »

Bearable wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 2:28 pm I can tell you from first hand knowledge that the courts considers a pocket knife or penknife a weapon and will not comply with Ohio law.
Please clarify that for me. Do you mean the judges and prosecutors of Ohio's legal system still default to the old definition of a knife being a weapon until proven otherwise, so to speak? Or did you mean that someone would be in trouble for somehow getting a knife past courthouse security and into a courtroom?

If you meant the former, I know exactly two local judges well enough to have spoken with them about the recent ORC changes regarding knives. Also, one county prosecutor. One judge is Common Pleas, the other a Municipal Court judge. Both of them, and the prosecutor, are familiar with how that law reads now. I'd just assumed their colleagues were up to speed as well.
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by Bearable »

Brian D. wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 7:41 am
Bearable wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 2:28 pm I can tell you from first hand knowledge that the courts considers a pocket knife or penknife a weapon and will not comply with Ohio law.
Please clarify that for me. Do you mean the judges and prosecutors of Ohio's legal system still default to the old definition of a knife being a weapon until proven otherwise, so to speak? Or did you mean that someone would be in trouble for somehow getting a knife past courthouse security and into a courtroom?

If you meant the former, I know exactly two local judges well enough to have spoken with them about the recent ORC changes regarding knives. Also, one county prosecutor. One judge is Common Pleas, the other a Municipal Court judge. Both of them, and the prosecutor, are familiar with how that law reads now. I'd just assumed their colleagues were up to speed as well.
I was summoned to be on grand jury duty of March, 2021. Mask mandate was in effect. Called and informed them I do not wear masks. I was rescheduled to September, 2021; Again, mask mandate was still in effect. Called and informed them I do not wear masks. Again, rescheduled to March, 2022. Repeat above, rescheduled to September, 2022. No more mask mandate. No Doctor note/letter explaining a medical issue was ever requested. This was all carried out through the Chief Deputy Jury Commissioner, Hamilton County, Ohio

Now for September, 2022, I inform Chief Deputy Jury Commissioner I would be showing-up for jury duty, but he needed to inform security that I would be carrying a pocket knife per ORC 2923.12(H). He immediately passed the buck to the sheriff’s office. The sheriff’s office said no weapons. Again, I pointed to ORC 2923.12(H). They pointed to the courts local rule 33(4). I called the chief administrative judge of the common pleas court.

He informed me that he didn’t care what the law said, no pocket knife. I reminded him of his oath and again he said he didn’t care. I informed him that I will ignore my oath for jury duty and invoke jury nullification. He hung-up on me. He did not know my name.

I called the Chief Deputy Jury Commissioner and informed him as to what the chief administrative judge said and that I would be showing-up with summons in hand and my pocket knife. If the deputy sheriff refused to let me enter and interfered with the order of the court I would be calling him. Also, ORC 2331.11 defines those persons privileged from arrest while going to, attending, or returning from court. One of which is a juror.

I was immediately excused from jury duty.
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by xpd54 »

Bearable wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 6:40 pm
Brian D. wrote: Fri Mar 10, 2023 7:41 am
Bearable wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 2:28 pm I can tell you from first hand knowledge that the courts considers a pocket knife or penknife a weapon and will not comply with Ohio law.
Please clarify that for me. Do you mean the judges and prosecutors of Ohio's legal system still default to the old definition of a knife being a weapon until proven otherwise, so to speak? Or did you mean that someone would be in trouble for somehow getting a knife past courthouse security and into a courtroom?

If you meant the former, I know exactly two local judges well enough to have spoken with them about the recent ORC changes regarding knives. Also, one county prosecutor. One judge is Common Pleas, the other a Municipal Court judge. Both of them, and the prosecutor, are familiar with how that law reads now. I'd just assumed their colleagues were up to speed as well.
I was summoned to be on grand jury duty of March, 2021. Mask mandate was in effect. Called and informed them I do not wear masks. I was rescheduled to September, 2021; Again, mask mandate was still in effect. Called and informed them I do not wear masks. Again, rescheduled to March, 2022. Repeat above, rescheduled to September, 2022. No more mask mandate. No Doctor note/letter explaining a medical issue was ever requested. This was all carried out through the Chief Deputy Jury Commissioner, Hamilton County, Ohio

Now for September, 2022, I inform Chief Deputy Jury Commissioner I would be showing-up for jury duty, but he needed to inform security that I would be carrying a pocket knife per ORC 2923.12(H). He immediately passed the buck to the sheriff’s office. The sheriff’s office said no weapons. Again, I pointed to ORC 2923.12(H). They pointed to the courts local rule 33(4). I called the chief administrative judge of the common pleas court.

He informed me that he didn’t care what the law said, no pocket knife. I reminded him of his oath and again he said he didn’t care. I informed him that I will ignore my oath for jury duty and invoke jury nullification. He hung-up on me. He did not know my name.

I called the Chief Deputy Jury Commissioner and informed him as to what the chief administrative judge said and that I would be showing-up with summons in hand and my pocket knife. If the deputy sheriff refused to let me enter and interfered with the order of the court I would be calling him. Also, ORC 2331.11 defines those persons privileged from arrest while going to, attending, or returning from court. One of which is a juror.

I was immediately excused from jury duty.
Hate to tell you, but the law probably does not support your position. Depends on the knife.

The problem with how they changed the knife law is that it only applies to situations where CCW 2923.12 comes into play. 2923.12(H) clearly states that it only applies to “this section”, meaning 2923.12.
(H) For purposes of this section, "deadly weapon" or "weapon" does not include any knife, razor, or cutting instrument if the instrument was not used as a weapon.
It does not apply to 2923.122 (deadly weapons in schools) or 2923.123 (deadly weapons into courts). So, if your knife would be considered a deadly weapon under the old CCW law, then it would most assuredly be considered a deadly weapon under 2923.122 and 2923.123.
2923.123
(A) No person shall knowingly convey or attempt to convey a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance into a courthouse or into another building or structure in which a courtroom is located.

(B) No person shall knowingly possess or have under the person's control a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance in a courthouse or in another building or structure in which a courtroom is located.
They really should have put the wording in (H) in 2923.11, which is the definition section of the weapons offenses.
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by JustaShooter »

xpd54 wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 11:29 am The problem with how they changed the knife law is that it only applies to situations where CCW 2923.12 comes into play. 2923.12(H) clearly states that it only applies to “this section”, meaning 2923.12.
(H) For purposes of this section, "deadly weapon" or "weapon" does not include any knife, razor, or cutting instrument if the instrument was not used as a weapon.
It does not apply to 2923.122 (deadly weapons in schools) or 2923.123 (deadly weapons into courts). So, if your knife would be considered a deadly weapon under the old CCW law, then it would most assuredly be considered a deadly weapon under 2923.122 and 2923.123.
2923.123
(A) No person shall knowingly convey or attempt to convey a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance into a courthouse or into another building or structure in which a courtroom is located.

(B) No person shall knowingly possess or have under the person's control a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance in a courthouse or in another building or structure in which a courtroom is located.
They really should have put the wording in (H) in 2923.11, which is the definition section of the weapons offenses.
That's a great point - and something we probably ought to find a legislator willing to fix.
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by Bearable »

JustaShooter wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:15 pm
xpd54 wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 11:29 am The problem with how they changed the knife law is that it only applies to situations where CCW 2923.12 comes into play. 2923.12(H) clearly states that it only applies to “this section”, meaning 2923.12.
(H) For purposes of this section, "deadly weapon" or "weapon" does not include any knife, razor, or cutting instrument if the instrument was not used as a weapon.
It does not apply to 2923.122 (deadly weapons in schools) or 2923.123 (deadly weapons into courts). So, if your knife would be considered a deadly weapon under the old CCW law, then it would most assuredly be considered a deadly weapon under 2923.122 and 2923.123.
2923.123
(A) No person shall knowingly convey or attempt to convey a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance into a courthouse or into another building or structure in which a courtroom is located.

(B) No person shall knowingly possess or have under the person's control a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance in a courthouse or in another building or structure in which a courtroom is located.
They really should have put the wording in (H) in 2923.11, which is the definition section of the weapons offenses.
That's a great point - and something we probably ought to find a legislator willing to fix.
That would be a great point except xpd54 is incorrect. He doesn't understand statutory construction. Both 2923.122 and 2923.123 are supplemental sections of 2923.12.
The Revised Code is divided into titles, chapters, sections, and supplemental sections.
Each subdivision of the Revised Code indicates increasing specificity regarding the topic addressed. For example, Title 29 of the Revised Code addresses Crimes-Procedure law generally, and each chapter and its sections provide increasing levels of detail.
You can determine the title, chapter, and section (and, if relevant, supplemental section) of the Revised Code from the number:
R.C. 2923.12 → Title 29, Chapter 23, Section 12
R.C. 2923,122 → Title 29, Chapter 23, Section 12, and Supplemental Section 2.

See: https://www.lsc.ohio.gov/assets/organiz ... s-2023.pdf

That is why part (H) is under 2923.12
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by xpd54 »

Bearable wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:40 pm
JustaShooter wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:15 pm
xpd54 wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 11:29 am The problem with how they changed the knife law is that it only applies to situations where CCW 2923.12 comes into play. 2923.12(H) clearly states that it only applies to “this section”, meaning 2923.12.



It does not apply to 2923.122 (deadly weapons in schools) or 2923.123 (deadly weapons into courts). So, if your knife would be considered a deadly weapon under the old CCW law, then it would most assuredly be considered a deadly weapon under 2923.122 and 2923.123.



They really should have put the wording in (H) in 2923.11, which is the definition section of the weapons offenses.
That's a great point - and something we probably ought to find a legislator willing to fix.
That would be a great point except xpd54 is incorrect. He doesn't understand statutory construction. Both 2923.122 and 2923.123 are supplemental sections of 2923.12.
The Revised Code is divided into titles, chapters, sections, and supplemental sections.
Each subdivision of the Revised Code indicates increasing specificity regarding the topic addressed. For example, Title 29 of the Revised Code addresses Crimes-Procedure law generally, and each chapter and its sections provide increasing levels of detail.
You can determine the title, chapter, and section (and, if relevant, supplemental section) of the Revised Code from the number:
R.C. 2923.12 → Title 29, Chapter 23, Section 12
R.C. 2923,122 → Title 29, Chapter 23, Section 12, and Supplemental Section 2.

See: https://www.lsc.ohio.gov/assets/organiz ... s-2023.pdf

That is why part (H) is under 2923.12
In the grand scheme of things, my opinion means nothing. But the following people/organizations also disagree with you:

The Attorney General and his Ohio Peace Officer Training Commission staff attorneys who created the lesson plan I use when I teach topic 2-2O (weapon offenses) in the basic police academy:

Page 44 “Deadly weapon” and “weapon,” for purposes of R.C. 2923.12, does not include any knife, razor, or cutting instrument if the instrument was not used as a weapon.

No other offenses are mentioned.

Page 58 (regarding deadly weapons in schools since they don’t cover courts & 2923.123, but the same principle applies):
“Interpretation of elements: The offense (2923.122) prohibits taking any deadly weapon, not just a firearm (e.g., knives, brass knuckles), onto school premises, which include the following…..”

There is nothing in the lesson plan that says it has to be used as a weapon for this to apply.

And on page 198, they give a scenario where the cadets are supposed to figure out what charge is appropriate. One of the portions of the scenario deals with a car full of bad guys on a school parking lot. One of the turds has a switchblade in his sock. It wasn’t used as a weapon. Just mere possession. The answer key says that said turd could be charged with 2923.122(B) for being in possession of a deadly weapon (the knife) in a school safety zone.

The staff at the Ohio Legislative Service Commission who did this analysis also appear to disagree with you:
The act excludes knives, razors, and cutting instruments that were not used as weapons from the definition of “deadly weapon” for purposes of the offense of “carrying concealed weapons” and consequently excludes them from the continuing law prohibition against carrying a concealed deadly weapon.
“…for purposes of the offense (singular) of CCW”. Not for anything else.

Available here:
https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/downlo ... format=pdf

The folks at the American Knife and Tool Institute who helped get the law passed: https://www.akti.org/state-knife-laws/ohio/

And finally -

The prosecutors who I deal with on a regular basis and who I’ve reviewed cases like this with.
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