ATF preparing to make millions of pistol owners felons in De

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M-Quigley
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ATF preparing to make millions of pistol owners felons in De

Post by M-Quigley »

The ATF this year put out a proposal on AR pistols with stabilizing braces where they would be classified as short barrelled rifles and the owners would have to pay $200 and register them in a similar manner to suppressors, etc. or face possible jail time. The proposal got a lot of negative comments, and the Second amendment foundation filed a lawsuit against them in Texas. After this suit was filed SCOTUS came out with a decision against the EPA, saying you can't just make a rule and negatively affect millions of people, you don't have that authority with mere rule making, that is the job of the legislature. This might've concerned ATF because that's what they do a lot, and what they are doing with braces. IE "We said for years that it's legal and now it's not and you're now a felon if you have an unregistered one." :( The new rule was supposed to come out in August but both the ATF and the SAF agreed to put the suit on hold until December, and no one was sure what the ATF was going to do at that time. Now there a hint that the ATF is going to go ahead and make that rule because they're talking about an alleged amnesty program, where if you have a AR pistol with a brace you have 90 days to register it with the ATF without having to pay the $200 tax. With this amnesty though you allegedly have to send a picture of your AR pistol with a brace to prove that you're eligible for it. You also have to jump through all the hoops that you would for things like suppressors, fill out a form, have local sheriff sign it, submit fingerprints and photo of self, go through another background check by the ATF, (and there's no time limit for it like on a NICS check) and then get your form and tax stamp sometime in the next year maybe. :roll: There's probably other hoops I've left out, IDK. IDK what his source was but one alleged expert online claimed that this could affect maybe 20 million owners of AR pistols. I know many of those people and they're all law abiding. One uses his for church parking lot security in his car, in case of a mass shooter showing up. He can legally have an AR pistol loaded in his car but not a rifle or SBR.

Some might say "just remove the brace" but when I looked at the point system it had points of plenty of other things, like you get points if you put iron sights on it, and also points if you put an optic or red dot on it also. :?:
The thing is, sights or optics or braces don't stop someone from shooting the pistol it only helps with accuracy, and mass shooters shooting into a crowd of unarmed victims or most criminals probably don't care as much about that as a law abiding gun owner. If a mass shooter did care he would just go out and buy one and put it on prior to the mass shooting. It's not like a person who wants to commit mass murder is going to care about violating some ATF rule, and the ATF isn't talking about simply banning braces so they're still be available.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHEsKCXS47E" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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FormerNavy
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Re: ATF preparing to make millions of pistol owners felons i

Post by FormerNavy »

M-Quigley wrote:The ATF this year put out a proposal on AR pistols with stabilizing braces where they would be classified as short barrelled rifles and the owners would have to pay $200 and register them in a similar manner to suppressors, etc. or face possible jail time. The proposal got a lot of negative comments, and the Second amendment foundation filed a lawsuit against them in Texas. After this suit was filed SCOTUS came out with a decision against the EPA, saying you can't just make a rule and negatively affect millions of people, you don't have that authority with mere rule making, that is the job of the legislature. This might've concerned ATF because that's what they do a lot, and what they are doing with braces. IE "We said for years that it's legal and now it's not and you're now a felon if you have an unregistered one." :( The new rule was supposed to come out in August but both the ATF and the SAF agreed to put the suit on hold until December, and no one was sure what the ATF was going to do at that time. Now there a hint that the ATF is going to go ahead and make that rule because they're talking about an alleged amnesty program, where if you have a AR pistol with a brace you have 90 days to register it with the ATF without having to pay the $200 tax. With this amnesty though you allegedly have to send a picture of your AR pistol with a brace to prove that you're eligible for it. You also have to jump through all the hoops that you would for things like suppressors, fill out a form, have local sheriff sign it, submit fingerprints and photo of self, go through another background check by the ATF, (and there's no time limit for it like on a NICS check) and then get your form and tax stamp sometime in the next year maybe. :roll: There's probably other hoops I've left out, IDK. IDK what his source was but one alleged expert online claimed that this could affect maybe 20 million owners of AR pistols. I know many of those people and they're all law abiding. One uses his for church parking lot security in his car, in case of a mass shooter showing up. He can legally have an AR pistol loaded in his car but not a rifle or SBR.

Some might say "just remove the brace" but when I looked at the point system it had points of plenty of other things, like you get points if you put iron sights on it, and also points if you put an optic or red dot on it also. :?:
The thing is, sights or optics or braces don't stop someone from shooting the pistol it only helps with accuracy, and mass shooters shooting into a crowd of unarmed victims or most criminals probably don't care as much about that as a law abiding gun owner. If a mass shooter did care he would just go out and buy one and put it on prior to the mass shooting. It's not like a person who wants to commit mass murder is going to care about violating some ATF rule, and the ATF isn't talking about simply banning braces so they're still be available.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHEsKCXS47E" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So they are making AR pistols with a brace SBR's by fiat.... and the LAW says you have to pay a $200 tax stamp to register an SBR. I don't believe the law gives ATF any leeway to create said amnesty program, so I don't even think their waiver of the $200 is legal....
M-Quigley
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Re: ATF preparing to make millions of pistol owners felons i

Post by M-Quigley »

FormerNavy wrote: So they are making AR pistols with a brace SBR's by fiat.... and the LAW says you have to pay a $200 tax stamp to register an SBR. I don't believe the law gives ATF any leeway to create said amnesty program, so I don't even think their waiver of the $200 is legal....
Legal? Since when has that stopped the ATF from doing something. In their opinion it's legal until the courts tell them it's not. :(

Ironically, when the guy who is now in charge of the ATF was asked what an assault weapon was he wouldn't define it, he said that's not the job of the ATF it's the job of Congress to define what it is. Stabilizing braces have been around since 2013 and the ATF was okay with most of them until now. Now suddenly an AR with almost all stabilizing braces out there are actually stocks and SBR's simply because they say it is?
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Re: ATF preparing to make millions of pistol owners felons i

Post by JustaShooter »

An astute observer might note that although the final rule was due to be published last month, it has not yet happened. (And, recall that once the final rule *is* published, there is a120-day period before it takes effect.)

As I understand it, one of the lawsuits they are involved in has caused them to delay the release of the final rule till sometime in December while the impact of the recent SCOTUS rulings are evaluated. One would hope that in light of those rulings they are going to significantly alter the final ruling, but I don't think the end result will be much, if any, more palatable. In fact, with the recent leak of their intent to implement a free amnesty program, I suspect that is their "fix" for the ruling. We shall see.
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M-Quigley
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Re: ATF preparing to make millions of pistol owners felons i

Post by M-Quigley »

JustaShooter wrote:An astute observer might note that although the final rule was due to be published last month, it has not yet happened. (And, recall that once the final rule *is* published, there is a120-day period before it takes effect.)

As I understand it, one of the lawsuits they are involved in has caused them to delay the release of the final rule till sometime in December while the impact of the recent SCOTUS rulings are evaluated. One would hope that in light of those rulings they are going to significantly alter the final ruling, but I don't think the end result will be much, if any, more palatable. In fact, with the recent leak of their intent to implement a free amnesty program, I suspect that is their "fix" for the ruling. We shall see.
I think I mentioned almost all that in the first post, but you summarized it better than I could. :) I think I might've been half asleep at the time, should've broken up the post into more paragraphs. Looking at it again it's a little hard for me to read and I wrote it. :oops:

Here is a video from a couple of people on how to fill out the ATF form 4999, the "point system" for determining whether it's an AR pistol or SBR. :roll:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orX0g6P3JmA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: ATF preparing to make millions of pistol owners felons i

Post by M-Quigley »

UPDATE: ATF withdrew (for now) their pistol stabilizing brace point system scheme to classify pistols into SBR's. :) The fact that the Republicans gained control of Congress may have been a factor, but more likely the SCOTUS decision on EPA vs West Virginia had a part in it also.
The withdraw notice came only hours after Rep. Richard Hudson (NC-08) and 89 other Congressional Representatives sent a letter to ATF asking the agency to “immediately take action to correct this injustice.”
https://www.nraila.org/articles/2020122 ... e-guidance" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/gener ... f/download" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: ATF preparing to make millions of pistol owners felons i

Post by M-Quigley »

Ooops, I screwed up in the previous post. I knew the ATF was supposed to say in court by today what they were going to do, so I did a Google search limiting posts to the last week. The link I found said Dec. 23rd and I failed to notice the year (2020) What ATF and the SAF allegedly said was the ATF was going to now wait until sometime in January. Why a month matters IDK, and it's possible the ATF will in January ask for even more time to make a decision. :roll:

The link below is actually recent.
Washington Gun Law President, William Kirk, discusses today's developments in the matter of Second Amendment Foundation v. ATF, in which both parties have filed a joint status report now stating that ATFs new rule on firearm with attached stabilizing braces will not be published until January of 2023.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=770beVc31gw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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