How much crud do I need/want to carry?

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jeep45238
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How much crud do I need/want to carry?

Post by jeep45238 »

Sorry if you feel like you're getting called out, you're not.
redacted wrote:I often get accused of thinking I am Batman.
-I carry a concealed pistol with 2 extra magazines.
-I have a flashlight on my belt.
-Leatherman/Gerber multitool (thanks to the US Army) because it is just useful
-cigarette lighter (I do not smoke but fire is useful)
-cell phone
I used to do similarly, then I asked myself a serious question - "If I'm carrying a duty gun, a reload, a backup gun, pepper spray, and a light based off the expectation that I'm going to need them in my destination, am I still going to go there" Nope. I had a good talk with myself about who I'm willing to spend my life in jail for, and that list got real small real quick, and reflected in my gear selection and how I go about life.

I am not dinging anybody, I am just putting this out there for a through provoking topic for folks to consider. An honest assessment in your gear, it's application, can you ACTUALLY use it, how could it hinder your in different situations, etc. This is just presented from a what do I need versus what do I want, and what am I willing to do for it type of things. It is not to call out anybody or shout from a soap box. Just saying that self reflection, and the ability to change for the better is a good thing.




None of this is to say that my voodoo or widgets are the best or that anybody else is wrong. You do you, just understand why you do you honey boo-boo.



I started looking honestly at my life, how I want to live, etc.. Accumulating and carrying all the things, ways to carry the things, and strapping more gear on me than a patrol officer uses daily was literally costing me money to acquire, compromising the social life I wanted, dictated certain clothing choices (which can also be like flying your gang colors, so to speak) taking how long to setup, worried about printing, etc... I wanted to simplify my life while not really giving up capabilities that I am willing and able to perform.

Modern offerings of flashlights can be incredible from a carry perspective - the Surefire Stiletto (or Stiletto Pro if you have the money) carry so well in the pocket, and are setup to be used as a utility light, but actually are easier to use with a 2 hand grip while shooting than traditional round lights. The Streamlight Wedge is a competitor, but I have found doesn't do as well for a shooting type gun. A good handheld light is a game changer, makes life easier, is able to increase situational awareness, and can neutralize situations before non-lethal or lethal forces are ever required. For some more hardcore folks, offerings from Modlite and upcoming from Cloud Defense do things that you didn't think were possible with a light. A good handheld is so much more valuable in more situations than a weapon light, that I literally twitch when I see guns with weapon lights but they don't have a handheld. Additionally, the actual percentage of weapon mounted lights that are activated in self-defense situations is so freaking minimal it's silly (as in, under 2%).

Since the middle of this year, I no longer carry a pocket knife. I found a great deal on a Leatherman Wave, found it's ease of access to blades just as good as pocket knives, and had so many extra uses on it without fluff that I wouldn't use. I have literally used this thing to swap fuel pumps, disassemble engine housings, minor DIY smithing work, you name it - and the weight penalty is minimal compared to a pocket knife. I don't think I'll ever go back to carrying a pocket knife, and for a multi-tool I will mess with them in person to see how easy it is to get to the things that I use the most. If I have to do 4 steps to get to a pocket knife blade, I'm probably wasting my money as an example.

Fire is useful, and I use them at work when I'm cutting ropes. Outside fo that, I honestly I haven't used a lighter outside of a lighting a pipe or candle in almost 6 years. Depending on where you live, if you smoke, and what you do for a living that may change, but if you live in suburban or urban environments as a non-smoker, what the heck are you going to light on fire anyway, a trash can on the street? If it's for emergency heat sources, keep some hand warmers in the glovebox of your car, they don't leak fuel and can be used inside of a shelter (like a car that's out of gas in a ditch in the winter).

Carrying a 1911 and 2 reloads gives me 25-31 rounds of ammo depending on caliber selection for Govt/Commander guns with 2 spare mags. A steel commander weighs approximately 2.125 pounds empty (34 oz), ammo weight dependent upon caliber. An aluminum model weighs 1.5 pounds. Carrying a reliable modern designed double stack gives me 31-35 rounds with a single reload, assuming 15-17 round magazines with significant weight savings. A fully loaded, optic equipped HK VP9 weighs in at 2.5 pounds with a holster (40oz). I do not carry a spare magazine.

The ammo to weight versus overall size is the reason why guns like the 365, glock 43, etc. are so popular these days. I'm a curmudgeon on small guns, for my life style give me a snug nose revolver for reasons that I think are more practical (different conversation).

And on the phone - let's be honest, it's a portable super computer that can make phone calls these days. The practicality of use can not be understated. My phone weights 6.75 oz, and is one of the smaller older iPhone models of some sort.


Image Image

So, all said and done, I've got similar or better capabilities with the gun, probably better usage out of the light, similar or better with the multi-tool for my daily life and work life, and have the addition of a non-lethal option. My keys and leatherman ride in the same pocket, with the pepper spray and flashlight being clipped to the top of the same pocket (pepper spray towards the hip bone, flashlight towards the front). My phone is in the right front pocket. My wallet is 2.3oz, and rides in a butt pocket and has nothing that isn't critical or used frequently in it.

I have 1 spot on my waist that I'm concerned with, the rest goes into pockets. I generally use a Mastermind Tactics Specialist belt, which is built around AIWB holsters, which gives a surprising amount of comfort, weight distribution, and concealment.

Everything weighs in at 62.95 oz (just under 4 pounds) when an optic-equipped duty gun is carried. Here's the crazy thing though - I almost always carry a J frame with a speed strip instead, which drops this weight down an insane amount.

If that gets me kilt in the streets, or the lack of a spare magazine does if I have a duty gun, try to understand why it did instead of carrying more gear without critical analysis and application to your life.


I don't carry a folding knife for defense, and with recent Ohio law changes I'll be grabbing a Scallywag aluminum dagger and trainer to combo up with my gear and seeking some professional training with it's use. The dagger weighs in a 1.6 oz.
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dowop
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Re: How much crud do I need/want to carry?

Post by dowop »

Excellent Post!
In September I was riding my bike @ a State Park in the Marina area. A idiot ran me & a lady friend off the road & then stopped because I hollered at him. He called me a bunch of F Bombs. I was carrying a S&W 360PD. If he would have got out of the truck I would of had to pull the gun out. I am in my 70`s. After it happened I thought I should have pulled my iPhone & started recording him. I am also carrying Pepper Gel now. Do not really want to shoot anybody & go through all the hassle that would incur. I see the Surefire Stiletto on Amazon.
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Re: How much crud do I need/want to carry?

Post by Brian D. »

Some of the trainers/writers sure recommend carrying a lot of stuff. "Two is one and one is none" seems to be a common theme. Not to pick on Massad Ayoob, but his idea of carrying a second, "diversionary" wallet has always made me roll my eyes a bit.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

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Re: How much crud do I need/want to carry?

Post by schmieg »

Brian D. wrote:Some of the trainers/writers sure recommend carrying a lot of stuff. "Two is one and one is none" seems to be a common theme. Not to pick on Massad Ayoob, but his idea of carrying a second, "diversionary" wallet has always made me roll my eyes a bit.
When I travel, I do have a secondary wallet that I keep my Ohio CHL and DL in along with some cash and a couple of my credit cards. In my primary wallet, I have my Arizona CHL and the rest of the stuff. If I am robbed, then hopefully, I will still have my Ohio CHL and DL and can quickly cancel the credit cards. I don't carry the secondary wallet on my person, but it is in my vehicle in a compartment that I can easily reach if stopped by the police, but which is not obvious to the casual observer.
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Re: How much crud do I need/want to carry?

Post by Brian D. »

That's not what Ayoob is saying, Schmieg. He's talking about a "throwdown" wallet, or roll of dollar bills wrapped with a twenty, or the like. And it was along with several other "what if..." items on the belt and in pockets.
Honestly, he's written so much for so long, he may not advise this nowadays.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

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Re: How much crud do I need/want to carry?

Post by schmieg »

Brian D. wrote:That's not what Ayoob is saying, Schmieg. He's talking about a "throwdown" wallet, or roll of dollar bills wrapped with a twenty, or the like. And it was along with several other "what if..." items on the belt and in pockets.
Honestly, he's written so much for so long, he may not advise this nowadays.
That may not work with an obsessive compulsive crook.
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Re: How much crud do I need/want to carry?

Post by evan price »

I've tried to minimize because I can't stand heavy jingling pockets.
I don't carry change as a normal thing.

Victorinox Tinker swiss army knife
Fenix SP1 flashlight
Kershaw Scallion folder in black
NAA mini magnum
Pocket handkerchief
Phone.

Vehicle stores 9mm handgun with spare mag, 12-g pump shotgun with ammo, plenty of tools, lighters, tow rope, zip ties, first aid kit, spare AA batteries.
"20% accurate as usual, Morty."

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Re: How much crud do I need/want to carry?

Post by jeep45238 »

Again, this is to foster an intelligent self-assessment of gear, will it do what you need it to do, do you have overlaps (and why), and do you have gear that honestly isn't effective, or fits a role that isn't going to happen unless you're a spec ops dude in South Africa kicking in teeth in a hotel.

"It works for me" is not what this is about - asking yourself does it ACTUALLY work, and why, in your circumstances.




It works for me is for the lazy people to hide their inadequacies, instead of realizing they have them from the get go.
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You can't truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of great violence. If you're not capable of violence, you're not peaceful, you're harmless.
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Re: How much crud do I need/want to carry?

Post by M-Quigley »

jeep45238 wrote:Again, this is to foster an intelligent self-assessment of gear, will it do what you need it to do, do you have overlaps (and why), and do you have gear that honestly isn't effective, or fits a role that isn't going to happen unless you're a spec ops dude in South Africa kicking in teeth in a hotel.

"It works for me" is not what this is about - asking yourself does it ACTUALLY work, and why, in your circumstances.




It works for me is for the lazy people to hide their inadequacies, instead of realizing they have them from the get go.
What I carry has been actually working for me just fine so far, and will do what I need it to do if I need to do something with it, based on the most realistic and likely circumstances that I personally might realistically encounter at this stage in my life. (retired and live in the boonies, and occasionally go into a small town) I test out everything I carry before carrying it as well as can be tested. What I carry might be inadequate if there is some unique change in my circumstances, like if I'm ever invited to a Christmas party at the Nakatomi plaza. :roll:
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Re: How much crud do I need/want to carry?

Post by Brian D. »

evan price wrote:I've tried to minimize because I can't stand heavy jingling pockets.
I don't carry change as a normal thing.

Victorinox Tinker swiss army knife
Fenix SP1 flashlight
Kershaw Scallion folder in black
NAA mini magnum
Pocket handkerchief
Vehicle stores 9mm handgun with spare mag, 12-g pump shotgun with ammo, plenty of tools, lighters, tow rope, zip ties, first aid kit, spare AA batteries.
Any particular brand of hanky? Us gear junkies want to know! :D
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

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Re: How much crud do I need/want to carry?

Post by jeep45238 »

M-Quigley wrote: What I carry has been actually working for me just fine so far
You have missed the entire point. It is okay to change our opinions of things over time, learn from mistakes, and take views of our personal lives that differ from others.

This isn't intended to be a gear list - this is intended to be a thought provoking reflection of "why" we carry what we carry, not "it works for me".

Per the first post
None of this is to say that my voodoo or widgets are the best or that anybody else is wrong. You do you, just understand why you do you honey boo-boo.
I have only drawn on another human once, and never fired the trigger. So technically based off of that narrow viewpoint, I just need a cap gun. Introspection is a good thing.
http://shootingfordollars.org Where Firearms and Finances meet.

You can't truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of great violence. If you're not capable of violence, you're not peaceful, you're harmless.
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Re: How much crud do I need/want to carry?

Post by evan price »

Brian D. wrote: Any particular brand of hanky? Us gear junkies want to know! :D
It's a 5.11 tactical nose wiper. You can tell because it has picatinny rails.
"20% accurate as usual, Morty."

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Re: How much crud do I need/want to carry?

Post by M-Quigley »

jeep45238 wrote: You have missed the entire point.
Okay, let me see if I can answer this one section at a time.
jeep45238 wrote: It is okay to change our opinions of things over time,
There have been a lot of changes of opinion in the 4 decades that I've been carrying, but the most recent I guess was I now primarily carry a 9mm instead of a compact 45acp. The 9X19 made today is much more reliable in expansion than what was made 40 years ago. I still train with the 45 and carry it, as it is the same size and operates the same (SA with thumb safety) but getting ammo for it is much more expensive and difficult in the last 2 years, while I had 9mm even before the ammo scarcity. Another change of opinion is thinking that every time I practice I need to fire 50-100 rds at a time to stay proficient. I've found that for me shooting a smaller number of rounds more frequently is just as effective. Since I have my own private range, I don't have to drive to and pay to go to a range like others do, so I can practice any time I want.

Even if I didn't have access to my own range and was short on ammo, I can still do some non shooting practice inside my house, primarily drawing and aiming and using laser cartridges. No it doesn't have the recoil but it does tell you if your carry method is efficient or clumsy and gives you an idea of your first shot performance. I can't say indoor practice itself is a change, because I started doing it back in the day, (almost like Deniro practicing draws in Taxi Driver but without the comments :lol: ) but the difference was back then it was merely dry fire and rubber bullets propelled by primers, and today it's lasers.

While I can still use iron sights I know people in my age range who have eye issues that they didn't have when younger and prefer to use either a red dot or laser sight, and if I need to go that route I will.
jeep45238 wrote: learn from mistakes,
Almost all the mistakes I can recall making was back in the day, not recently, and fortunately no harm was done, but yes I learned from them. In terms of off duty carry, I suppose carrying my off duty revolver for the first time in a cheap collapsible multi fit holster instead of one made specifically for my handgun. :( I quickly learned the cheap option isn't always the best one.
jeep45238 wrote: and take views of our personal lives that differ from others.

This isn't intended to be a gear list - this is intended to be a thought provoking reflection of "why" we carry what we carry, not "it works for me".
The "why" I carry has changed a lot since I first started carrying. Originally it was for self protection against some criminals I encountered working security or LE who threatened to kill me if they got the chance, plus there were times when I was living in a large urban city area where every day there was at least one violent crime. You could be (like people who lived nearby) a victim of a violent crime even if you just took out the trash, and unlike being in your house, Ohio didn't have licensed concealed carry. They did allow open carry when outdoors and some of my neighbors did that just to avoid getting mugged or raped. :( I'm not generally what you call an open carry advocate but if the circumstances dictate it, then it's generally better than not having a gun at all in some places, as long as you are aware of the issues doing it. Back then I carried a lot more than what I do now, because even off duty I was expected to deal with other peoples situations if I encountered them.

jeep45238 wrote:Per the first post
None of this is to say that my voodoo or widgets are the best or that anybody else is wrong. You do you, just understand why you do you honey boo-boo.

I have only drawn on another human once, and never fired the trigger. So technically based off of that narrow viewpoint, I just need a cap gun. Introspection is a good thing.
[/quote]

Almost all my experience in defensive gun uses was 30-40 years ago, and in security and LE, so that's a different situation than what I am now, a civilian carrying for my own personal protection. As a civilian I have (or used to have) a duty to retreat from danger if safely possible, back then I had a duty to confront it. I had a obligation to go to some bad places and at bad times, but as a civilian I have the choice of avoiding those places. The laws regarding use of force are different for LE than civilians. I can't recall any situations as a civilian and since Ohio enacted licensed CC where I've had to point a gun at someone, but there were a couple of times that it came close to that. My carry choices have changed because my life circumstances have changed. I'm not a sheepdog, but I'm not a sheep either. If I had to make an animal comparison it would be a porcupine, and my carry choices reflect that.

Even though I live in a statistically safe place, I still have to shop in a big city sometimes, and travel on the interstate, so personal protection is still occasionally an issue. The last dangerous encounters I had wasn't with a 2 legged attacker, but a loose pit bull down the street and a black bear in Tenn. Fortunately I didn't have to shoot either of them, or even pepper spray them, but I could have done either if I had needed to. Is a HP 45 acp round enough for a black bear? Can't say for sure but I didn't start carrying a 44 mag just for a walk in the woods just because of that one encounter.
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Re: How much crud do I need/want to carry?

Post by jeep45238 »

Thank you for the insight, I really do appreciate hearing other's points of view and rational.


I absolutely did start cracking up re: Deniro
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Re: How much crud do I need/want to carry?

Post by M-Quigley »

jeep45238 wrote:Thank you for the insight, I really do appreciate hearing other's points of view and rational.


I absolutely did start cracking up re: Deniro
:lol: It was an extreme example and I wasn't that bad in practice, but I at least did make sure that what I was doing wasn't slow and awkward. When the first time I had to draw and present my off duty gun in a real life situation everything went very smoothly and quickly. There was a church shooting that is on video and on the internet, a guy comes in with a shotgun, not a mass shooting he had an intended target. I wish the church security guy who tried to draw his handgun would've tested out his carry method before the day when he actually had to draw it for real. He took so much time and struggled so much to get his gun out that the killer easily noticed it and killed him. :(

Speaking of carry, although I don't wear one now, IF I were doing something beyond my normal life where a deadly encounter chance might increase (like church security or working retail, like a convenience store clerk) I would consider wearing concealable soft body armor temporarily, like I did back in the day. Although I never personally needed it I met a few people who did end up needing it and for them it make the difference between living and dying for them. One of the people said to me that he worked in a store by himself and the company wouldn't allow employees to be armed, but someone gifted him a used vest that happened to fit him under a loose shirt. He told me that one night a robber came in. He gave up the money just like he was told to do, but the robber decided to shoot him anyway afterwards. When he got shot in the chest he ran out the back door and the guy shot at him again, with one round hitting him in the back. He said it hurt but it didn't disable him or knock him down and he ended up with a couple of bruises. The other people who were shot with a vest on reported a similar outcome, they were able to react and no permanent serious injuries. The difference between their reaction and his was that they were armed and able to shoot back, hitting their attackers. The ER doc told him that if he hadn't been wearing a vest either one of the shots would've likely been fatal. Instead of being a slab in the morgue he went home that night. If the church security guy that got shot would've been wearing almost any level of soft body armor he would likely be alive today.
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