SB 215, Permit-less Carry and more

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JustaShooter
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Re: SB 215, Permit-less Carry and more

Post by JustaShooter »

Pops Fun wrote:The House and Senate have passed bills, :) Next they are reconciled ??
That is one possibility, yes.
Pops Fun wrote:Will another vote be needed before sending to Dewine??
As I understand it, at least one more vote, yes. The House *could* pass SB215 as-is and send it to DeWine. The Senate *could* pass HB227 as-is and send *it* to DeWine. Or, one or both bills get revised to a version that can be passed in both the Senate and House, in which case there would need to be a vote in each before it is sent to DeWine.
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Liberty
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Re: SB 215, Permit-less Carry and more

Post by Liberty »

What good is legislation that allows carrying of firearms without a license if it can deprive thousands of citizens, many who own firearms and have a CHL, of their right to even possess a firearm? Then, in this political environment, law enforcement would be tasked with confiscating all of those firearms? Do you guys want to spark a civil war?
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Re: SB 215, Permit-less Carry and more

Post by Liberty »

Senator Johnson stabbed us in the back again just like he did in 2013 with HB 203 with the same issue, i.e., inserting federal language into Ohio law in order to greatly expand who in Ohio is prohibited from possessing firearms to include those convicted of non-violent offenses. SB 215, however, goes a step further by invalidating restorations that were granted automatically, pardons, expungement, records sealing, and by court order.

SB 215 must be fixed in reconciliation by striking “comes within any category of persons specified in 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1) to (9)” from lines 202-203 and replacing it with “becomes prohibited from possessing or receiving a firearm under 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1) to (9).”
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Re: SB 215, Permit-less Carry and more

Post by Chuck »

I've got a real problem with our forum calling my friend a "back stabber"
YOU are the freaking "backstabber" letting this go on and on with two different bills while you lie in wait to pounce once it becomes too late.
Up yours

I don't know who's got all the PMs in my inbox, but I ain't even gonna click them as long as that slsnder is on this thread

I've also got a real problem knowledgeable folks who know about mistakes and do nothing to fix it so they can play the big shot.
That is EXACTLY the kind of BS that caused me to decide to quit all this stuff.
I ask for help and ask for help and ask for help, with nary a response
Then, once we get something passed, you accuse us back stabbing, etc.

The hell with you guys.
You can find all the legislators contact info online

My dumb, stupid ignorant know-nothing butt quit, as of right now
Be sure to tell us how you fixed my screw up
Ain't activism fun?

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And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
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Re: SB 215, Permit-less Carry and more

Post by Liberty »

Well representative Johnson was the one who did this in 2013 and now has done the exact same thing again. He had to know better unless he is incompetent because of what happened to HB 203 in 2013 after I explained to everyone how federal firearms laws interact with state laws.

If you would have read my PM, you would have seen my apology for not paying attention until I learned SB 215 passed because constitutional carry has been introduced every year and ignored by the legislature, and because I have been very busy with family matters. I had to pull my disabled son out of his day program and take care of him myself because he was being abused, my brother died in November, a hospital tried to kill my sister last week with Remdesivir and a ventilator. After taking my sister out of the hospital I had to drive hundreds of miles to get my her an oxygen concentrator, ivermectin, budesonide and a nebulizer, and coordinate with America’s Frontline Doctors to bring her back from death’s doorstep.

The last time I was keeping up on reading the forums, I read where you said that you did not expect much of anything to get done this legislative session. I think it was very early this year. I heard on the radio that constitutional carry passed the senate so I found it and read it.

Also, I thought I educated you guys on this very topic, and I told you that you can call me any time and that I would read anything that you send me and give you my opinion. If you sent me anything since December 2019, I did not get it.
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Re: SB 215, Permit-less Carry and more

Post by Liberty »

It is not too late to fix this. Circumstances like this is one reason why we have a bicameral legislative structure. The House serves as a check on the Senate, in part, to catch issues like this. Bicameral legislative bodies use a process called reconciliation to fix issues like this all the time. A legislator that tells you it is too late to fix this does not really want to fix it. If this is a simple mistake and Senator Johnson did not deliberately insert the poison pill, he will cause it to be fixed in reconciliation.

I have already set forth the method to fix it, i.e., strike “comes within any category of persons specified in 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1) to (9)” from lines 202-203 and replace it with “becomes prohibited from possessing or receiving firearms under 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1) to (9).”
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Re: SB 215, Permit-less Carry and more

Post by Liberty »

I understand your frustration Chuck, but your anger is pointed in the wrong direction. We are currently in the fight for the life of our country and our way of life. Evil career politicians know they are out-numbered and out-armed. In order to defeat us they have to trick or force some of us into taking poison and trick the rest of us into surrendering our arms incrementally.

They don’t care about not requiring those who can go and get a CHL to get one. They do, however, want to continue with their incremental deprivation of the right of citizens to be armed, and they will continue this until they can put us all into that category.

In Ohio that has been to move as many offenses from the misdemeanor category to the felony category over the years and find a way to sneak the federal standard into Ohio law. The federal standard is any felony (unless rights restored by the state) whereas Ohio is violent felonies.

If you would have identified the poison pill in line 203 of SB 215 they would have had a thousand excuses why you were wrong or how they cannot fix it, and if you were successful in getting it fixed, they would not have passed it. Now that I have pointed it out they will either jam it through anyhow or scuttle the whole thing.

The Ohio republican party cannot be trusted! A prime example is HB 248. They recognized that they would not get reelected if the government forced medical experiments on the population so their surrogates in big business are doing it. HB 248 would have stopped that. And what did the republicans do? They shut it down and tried to jam through HB 435 that is filled with poison pills. That did not work so the house passed HB 218 that is extremely watered down, will do nothing if the name of the current plandemic is changed to COVID-2022, has a sunset clause and specifically exempts children’s hospitals.

The forced medical experimentation is a clear violation of the Nuremberg Code, and they do not want citizens to be able to enforce it—so the incremental reduction of how may people can legally be armed must go on. That is much more important to them than whether or not we have to obtain a CHL or not to be able to carry firearm. Currently, anyone who wants to carry a firearm can go get a CHL. And I don’t want to hear the BS about the CHL creates a list; they are tracking every transaction and they know who everyone is that owns a firearm.
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Re: SB 215, Permit-less Carry and more

Post by Glock Rock »

So you’re telling me we’re screwed every which way from Sunday.
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Re: SB 215, Permit-less Carry and more

Post by Homer J »

[quote="Liberty"]SB 215, however, goes a step further by invalidating restorations that were granted automatically, pardons, expungement, records sealing, and by court order.”[quote}

Can someone please explain to me what this means?
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Re: SB 215, Permit-less Carry and more

Post by Liberty »

18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1) to (9) lists category of persons who are federally prohibited from possessing firearms, but 18 U.S.C. 921(A)(20) provides that the prohibitions outlined in 18 U.S.C. 922 do not apply to persons who have had their firearms rights properly restored by the state of conviction. See U.S. v. Cassidy (6th Cir. 1990), 899 F.2d 543.

In Caron v. U.S. (1998), 524 U.S. 308, the supreme court established that a state restoration must be complete in order for that state’s restorations to qualify for the exception contained within 18 U.S.C. 921(A)(20) so that the prohibitions in 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1) to (9) do not apply to those who have that state’s restoration. Accordingly, citizens who have been granted a state restoration have been prosecuted federally and sent to prison for 10 years because their state’s laws did not comply with the standard in Caron v. U.S. (1998), 524 U.S. 308. Persons possessing long guns pursuant their state’s restoration were federally convicted because their state did not also restore their right to possess handguns. There is a chart containing this information for all 50 states: https://ccresourcecenter.org/state-rest ... rivileges/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. To find the chart click on “firearms rights under federal law.” The second to the last column is “State Offenders Under No State Disability who Remain Federally Disabled.”

Lines 126 through 130 of SB 215 define a “qualifying adult” for the purposes of being able to carry a concealed handgun without a license as a person over 21 “who is not legally prohibited from possessing or receiving a firearm under 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1) to (9).” Then lines 201 through 217 provide that any person “comes within any category of persons specified in 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1) to (9)” loses their right to carry a concealed handgun without a license. Sb 215’s language in lines 201 through 217 does not take into consideration firearms rights that have been restored in direct contradiction to lines 126 through 130.

Now, apply this to a real-world circumstance where a person (Jane) who was convicted many years ago of a felony for bouncing a check. Jane lost her right to possess a firearm pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1) to (9) because the conviction was for a felony. Ohio restored that Jane’s civil rights by way of R.C. 2961.01(A)(2) and 2967.16(C)(1), and Ohio’s firearms prohibitions in R.C. 2923.13 does not apply because bouncing a check is not a felony of violence or a felony drug offense. 18 U.S.C. 921(A)(20) exempts Jane from the federal prohibitions of 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1) to (9) because Ohio law currently provides for complete restoration.

SB 215 passes and becomes law. Jane carries a firearm to protect herself and her young children while driving in Cleveland and is involved in a vehicle collision. Police discover that she is carrying a firearm and run a background check and find her check bouncing felony conviction, which brings her “within [a] category of persons specified in 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1) to (9).”

And John has a 30-year-old conviction that has been sealed under Ohio law, which currently provides for complete restoration and invokes the federal exception in 18 U.S.C. 921(A)(20). He lives in Cleveland, has a CHL and owns several firearms. SB 215 passes and becomes law. John has been and continues to “come[] within any category of persons specified in 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1) to (9).” John’s house catches on fire, and the Cleveland Fire Department discovers firearms while putting out the fire.

A federal prosecutor indicts both John and Jane to a federal judge for being a felon in possession of a firearm in violation of 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1). Do you think a federal judge who was appointed by Barack Obama would dismiss the case or allow it to proceed after the prosecutor argues that Ohio’s restorations are not complete as described in Caron v. U.S. (1998), 524 U.S. 308, because they prohibit, without exception, persons who “come[] within any category of persons specified in 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1) to (9)” from carrying a firearm without a CHL? I think the judge would say that there is a clear legislative intent in using the phrase “comes within any category of persons specified in 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1) to (9)” because the legislature had already used “becomes prohibited from possessing or receiving a firearm under 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1) to (9)” in lines 126 through 130 and had to have understood the difference in the meaning between the two. Appellate courts use this reasoning all the time. I think John and Jane go to prison.

All of this can be avoided very easily in reconciliation by an amendment that strikes “comes within any category of persons specified in 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1) to (9)” from lines 202-203 and replace it with “becomes prohibited from possessing or receiving a firearm under 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1) to (9).”
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Re: SB 215, Permit-less Carry and more

Post by Homer J »

Thank you for that detailed explanation. On Monday I will start calling my local state representatives and relaying this to them and hopefully it can be corrected before it moves forward or passes.
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