Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devices

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Javelin Man
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by Javelin Man »

Brian D. wrote:
bignflnut wrote:Published in the Federal Register on 12/26/2018
To take effect 03/26/2019

A federal government "shutdown" couldn't stop it...
Hey, it takes effect on my birthday, cool beans!

I currently believe Trump KNOWS this won't hold up in court, he's giving the liberal dogs a bone here. A bone which will blow up after they gnaw on it a while.

Somebody try to convince me my theory is wrong
No, your theory is correct: it will take effect on your birthday.
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by bignflnut »

Brian D. wrote:
I currently believe Trump KNOWS this won't hold up in court, he's giving the liberal dogs a bone here. A bone which will blow up after they gnaw on it a while.

Somebody try to convince me my theory is wrong
Help me understand the "blow up" part? As it stood at the beginning of 2018, these pieces of plastic were many times declared legal to own and manufacture. Now manufacturers have ceased production. After the court battles are over, you're saying that the manufacture and sale of these things returns as in early 2018? How is that explosive in any way? How will LIBERAL dogs be wounded?

How can POTUS stand before an NRA crowd now and claim that the Obama days are behind gun owners? What credibility shall be restored as he stands on a pile of court documents generated at his behest? How much time/energy/capital will pro-gun groups divert to this effort instead of achieving legislative victories that bolster RKBA?

You can give me the 5D underwater intergalactic chess grand-master theory, but please put some meat on it.
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by Javelin Man »

I don't think The Donald will receive the same reception at the next NRA convention. :evil:
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bruh bruh is slang for "complete and total moron" -sodbuster95

The following is a list of children's books that didn't quite make it to the printing press...
1. What Is That Dog Doing to That Other Dog?
2. Daddy Drinks Because You Cry
3. You Were An Accident
4. Bi-Curious George
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by djthomas »

Javelin Man wrote:I don't think The Donald will receive the same reception at the next NRA convention. :evil:
Don't be silly. Of course he will. Because, well, who else is there?
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by bignflnut »

djthomas wrote:
Javelin Man wrote:I don't think The Donald will receive the same reception at the next NRA convention. :evil:
Don't be silly. Of course he will. Because, well, who else is there?
That's right. If Lee Greenwood is playing and it's not Hillary, there's a neurological reflex to stand and cheer with vigor.
“It’s not that we don’t have enough scoundrels to curse; it’s that we don’t have enough good men to curse them.”–G.K. Chesterton-Illustrated London News, 3-14-1908

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"Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams to Mass Militia 10-11-1798
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by Brian D. »

bignflnut wrote: You can give me the 5D underwater intergalactic chess grand-master theory, but please put some meat on it.
Okay, unlike your usual posts, I'll keep this brief:
Remember when George W. Bush said 'If Congress brings me an extension of the Assault Weapon Ban, I'll sign it." ? Well, he seemed to know that wouldn't happen, so he could throw the anti-gun folks a bone by saying it.

I believe Trump is doing the same thing with this EO. Sure, it causes some inconvenience to manufacturers and gun owners, but hey, it keeps lawyers employed.

A bump stock is a useless gadget anyway, unless there is a rubber band shortage I haven't heard about.
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by JustaShooter »

bignflnut wrote: You can give me the 5D underwater intergalactic chess grand-master theory, but please put some meat on it.
Here's the 4D chess version of the theory as I understand it - not saying I believe it or espouse it, but:

Bump stock used in mass killing in Vegas.
Cue outcry from the public. "Something must be done!" "There outta be a law!" "Do it for tha chilren!" etc.
Congress starts feeling the pressure to, well, "do something" so it appears they are "helping".
The NRA (bless their hearts) indicates they could agree with additional regulation of bump stocks.
Trump doesn't want congress to pass (or even consider) new legislation restricting the devices so to forestall Congress he essentially tells the ATF to revisit their ruling and find a way to reclassify them.
Trump knows that the way the law is currently written that it would be regulatory overreach for the ATF to reclassify them as machine guns.
Trump also knows that this regulation will *immediately* be challenged in court, and the judge will issue a restraining order to prevent it from taking effect during the process because there would be "irreparable harm" if the ban takes effect and is eventually overturned.
Trump also believes the challenge to the ban will prevail - and even if not, will be appealed, and will likely end up at the Supreme court.
In the mean time, Trump is working on getting Kennedy to retire so he can replace him with a stronger 2A supporter to bolster the chances that the regulation will be overturned.
Trump is also crossing his fingers that Ginsburg won't wake up after one of her naps during SCOTUS sessions and he'll have another opportunity to strengthen the court before the case is heard.
Case makes it to the SCOTUS, ban is overturned with a strong ruling about regulatory overreach and 2A support, majority opinion has meat to give hope for removing existing infringements on the 2A.
Trump prevents new anti-2A legislation, ban is gone, never even took effect, future of 2A looks bright, Trump praises everyone for doing the right thing "like he knew they would from the start".

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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by bignflnut »

JustaShooter wrote:
bignflnut wrote: You can give me the 5D underwater intergalactic chess grand-master theory, but please put some meat on it.
Here's the 4D chess version of the theory as I understand it - not saying I believe it or espouse it, but:

Trump doesn't want congress to pass (or even consider) new legislation restricting the devices so to forestall Congress he essentially tells the ATF to revisit their ruling and find a way to reclassify them.

*not arguing with JustaShooter on this one, just refuting the theory as presented*

Congress *Could* pass some type of legislation, and he, as POTUS could plant the veto flag on it as a way of endearing himself to his constituents, right? Game over? What is to fear?
JustaShooter wrote:Trump knows that the way the law is currently written that it would be regulatory overreach for the ATF to reclassify them as machine guns.

Trump also knows that this regulation will *immediately* be challenged in court, and the judge will issue a restraining order to prevent it from taking effect during the process because there would be "irreparable harm" if the ban takes effect and is eventually overturned.
That's quite presumptive as to the district and court that would be selected to present the case. If so confident in the courts, why fear Congress putting this forth?
JustaShooter wrote:Trump also believes the challenge to the ban will prevail - and even if not, will be appealed, and will likely end up at the Supreme court.
So he will intentionally use resources to have his authority or the BATFE's authority overturned? This is a resume enhancement and a shining star in the future Presidential Library?
JustaShooter wrote:In the mean time, Trump is working on getting Kennedy to retire so he can replace him with a stronger 2A supporter to bolster the chances that the regulation will be overturned. Trump is also crossing his fingers that Ginsburg won't wake up after one of her naps during SCOTUS sessions and he'll have another opportunity to strengthen the court before the case is heard.
THAT is interesting, Kennedy could hold such sway and offer Trump a seat so that POTUS would deliberately fail.
JustaShooter wrote:Case makes it to the SCOTUS, ban is overturned with a strong ruling about regulatory overreach and 2A support, majority opinion has meat to give hope for removing existing infringements on the 2A.
Trump prevents new anti-2A legislation, ban is gone, never even took effect, future of 2A looks bright, Trump praises everyone for doing the right thing "like he knew they would from the start".

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I appreciate the effort JustaShooter has made to lay out the thinking here.

Doesn't seem like POTUS could take credit for all of this taking place if SCOTUS and others have the final say, even if POTUS put the ball in play to begin with. It's like throwing an intentional pick-6 or scoring an own goal thinking that the opponent will loosen up or something.

I still don't understand how this "blows up" any anti's, other than by saying RKBA gets "stronger" via judicial power. It's a lot of if's. Very risky business relying on the un-elected courts to uphold the law. They don't have a strong track record. Is this why people vote for elected officials, so that they can punt to the courts? Is that representative government? (If we had a string of judges thrown off of courts or tighter controls on who sits where, maybe this theory would hold more water. )
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by bignflnut »

Brian D. wrote:A bump stock is a useless gadget anyway, unless there is a rubber band shortage I haven't heard about.
That's right, we can "other" segments of our own proRKBA group and die by a thousand self-inflicted wounds.
This ban on bump stocks didn’t happen in a vacuum, it happened because no one outside of a small group of gun owners thought bump stocks were a good idea in the first place. We gun owners seem utterly incapable of explaining how the right to keep and bear arms affects everyone, not just ourselves.

SNIP

Gun owners need to follow that model and start thinking of gun rights in terms of other people, not just ourselves.

We are compromising about how much we are willing to give up. It’s time to make the other side compromise their values instead. It’s time to stop playing defense, and time to expand our gun rights by bringing in other people into our cause. We are not going to win the war on guns by circling the wagons and playing defense. We are going to win the war by opening up a second front and force the other side to start playing defense. We are compromising about how much we are willing to give up. It’s time to make the other side compromise their values instead.
We can cry "Not in the face" all we want, but we're still getting pummeled. Some willingly accept others being beaten about, so long as they think it won't come to them.
“It’s not that we don’t have enough scoundrels to curse; it’s that we don’t have enough good men to curse them.”–G.K. Chesterton-Illustrated London News, 3-14-1908

Republicans.Hate.You. See2020.

"Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams to Mass Militia 10-11-1798
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by Mustang380gal »

JustaShooter wrote:
bignflnut wrote: You can give me the 5D underwater intergalactic chess grand-master theory, but please put some meat on it.
Here's the 4D chess version of the theory as I understand it - not saying I believe it or espouse it, but:


In the mean time, Trump is working on getting Kennedy to retire so he can replace him with a stronger 2A supporter to bolster the chances that the regulation will be overturned.
Trump is also crossing his fingers that Ginsburg won't wake up after one of her naps during SCOTUS sessions and he'll have another opportunity to strengthen the court before the case is heard.
Ginsburg just had surgery for lung cancer. A lobe of her lung was removed. She is 85. Chances are that her time is indeed short. My guess is that she goes first, then Kennedy retires.
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by The German »

Trump betrayed his voters, the NRA is as utterly useless as expected. The bumpfire stock ban is the first step into even more gun control. Makes me puke having spent money for my NRA membership and having voted for a liar.
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by bignflnut »

We have seen how antigun zealots create, through the artifice of ‘assault weapon,’ a useful fiction through which semiautomatic firearms can be ostensibly lawfully banned. President Trump has, consciously or not, but certainly ill-advisedly and uncritically, created, through the DOJ-ATF Bump Stock Rule, a re-branding of semiautomatic firearm as machine gun based, essentially, on performance, albeit deliberately creating vagueness as to whether “bump stocks” necessitate one-trigger pull for every shot or multiple shots with one trigger pull in an attempt to “get around” the lack of any vagueness or ambiguity in the statutory definition of ‘machine gun.'

If Trump and the DOJ-ATF are allowed to get away with this subterfuge, then it is but a small step from a total ban on “bump stocks” to a total ban on all semiautomatic firearms, since rate of fire—utilized as the salient and subjective basis for elimination of firearms in the hands of civilians—will now provide the “ammunition” antigun zealots can and will latch onto in their unyielding zeal to continue to weaken the Second Amendment. And it is Trump, now, not Schumer or Pelosi, who has given them a vehicle they can and will use to destroy at once the citizen’s best means of self-defense and destroy, as well, the one truly capable defense in the citizen’s possession, to prevent or at least deter the onset of tyranny.
“It’s not that we don’t have enough scoundrels to curse; it’s that we don’t have enough good men to curse them.”–G.K. Chesterton-Illustrated London News, 3-14-1908

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"Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams to Mass Militia 10-11-1798
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by bignflnut »

A Freedom of Information Act Request filed with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Monday seeks presentation and other materials proving bureau decisions to reclassify firearm accessories as machineguns were political and contrary to statutory law, technical evaluations and advice of legal counsel. The request was filed by Stamboulieh Law, PLLC, on behalf of firearms designer Len Savage, President, Historic Arms, LLC.


The FOIA request seeks within 20 business days:

“1) Documents and all other tangible things, including but not limited to, emails, PowerPoint presentations, and communications related to a briefing at the Chief Counsel’s Office wherein a written brief and PowerPoint presentation, which discussed “automatically” and “single function of a trigger” was discussed (see attached Declaration of Rick Vasquez attached as Exhibit “1”, paragraphs 13 and 14);

“2) And, any other such similar briefings, which discussed Historic Arms, LLC, its products, and/or its president, Len Savage.”
“It’s not that we don’t have enough scoundrels to curse; it’s that we don’t have enough good men to curse them.”–G.K. Chesterton-Illustrated London News, 3-14-1908

Republicans.Hate.You. See2020.

"Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams to Mass Militia 10-11-1798
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by M-Quigley »

The German wrote:Trump betrayed his voters, the NRA is as utterly useless as expected. The bumpfire stock ban is the first step into even more gun control. Makes me puke having spent money for my NRA membership and having voted for a liar.
In 2016 if I recall correctly bump stocks weren't even an issue. Trump was saying he wouldn't sign an AW ban (his sons own AR's) and he'd sign CCW and hearing protection (suppressors changed to a simple 4473 instead of being class 3) He had a list of potential Justices for SCOTUS which all had records on the 2nd amendment. Hillary said she'd sign an AW ban (even one with no grandfather clause, making millions of law abiding people criminals overnight) background checks for everybody, would not sign national CCW or hearing protection act, said SCOTUS was wrong on the 2nd amendment and wanted to nominate activist Justices. Although Trump didn't sign the hearing protection act or national CCW he can't sign legislation if the Republicans in the Senate didn't have the guts to send it to him.

Despite this, in a little less than two years you'll have a chance to correct that mistake if you think it is one. Assuming Trump is the Republican nominee, every one of the people who so far have expressed an interest in running for him have said that they want to go much further than a bump stock ban or even what Hillary wanted. Some of them make Hillary look like a conservative in comparison. In addition they will nominate Judges in the vein of Ruth Bader Ginsberg, in regards to interpreting the Constitution. (i.e. its a "living document" and means whatever I want it to mean regardless of what it actually says) The bill of rights will still be on paper, they'll just be meaningless when you're charged with some new gun crime. And if you're counting on the Republicans in the Senate to stop the next president, some of the R Senators are RINO, and it's possible the Dems could flip the Senate in 2020 anyway. But go ahead and vote for whoever is running against him or don't vote, either way the result will be the same. That'll show that old liar Trump! :roll:
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Re: Trump Overturns Obama-Era Law: Bans All Bump Stock Devic

Post by bignflnut »

As soon as President Trump directed the ATF to take another look at federal law in order to re-classify bump stocks as machine guns, the Firearms Policy Coalition and others filed lawsuits challenging the new ATF rule and then acting Attorney General Matthew Whitaker’s authority to issue the rule.

The first ruling, however, has gone against the challengers. DC District Court Judge Dabney Friedrich has rejected the FPC’s lawsuits.
“It’s not that we don’t have enough scoundrels to curse; it’s that we don’t have enough good men to curse them.”–G.K. Chesterton-Illustrated London News, 3-14-1908

Republicans.Hate.You. See2020.

"Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams to Mass Militia 10-11-1798
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