Thoughts on Red Dot Pistol Sights?

[Mr. Glock]

With my aging eyes, I'm thinking a red dot (like an RMR) might help me out. Plus, they are becoming more popular too.

I shot a red dot S&W M&P about 3 years ago, but my iron sights were fine too (Same
string of fire for both). But this was at a class, so I was in the groove.

Wondering if the red dot would help with first shot connection in the real world, where I'm not in the groove?

[Mr. Glock]

And, if you run a red dot on your handgun, which one and what size dot?

[Jake]

Have you tried fiber optic sights (iron sights)?

[TSiWRX]

I'm firmly convinced that if you dedicate yourself to it, you'll be just as fast or, more likely, faster.

But IMveryHO, you've gotta make that transition and commit to it.

Otherwise, it's an absolute ***** finding that dot. Unlike a long-gun where you've got the cheek, with a handgun, that sucker is just floating out there in space. But if you can train yourself to index that dot properly each and every time, bro, you're gonna fly.

The tip of the "triangle" RMR models is a very refined POA if you can see that well.

Shooters complain a lot about the dual-illumination when you're in the dark shooting into the light (and that's a problem that I've also experienced with my old Trijicon Reflex), but in my very limited experience (with both), I think it's a viable to use your backup irons to work around that one.

This all said, I have *_NOT_* seriously looked into this option, yet, as from what I understand, there's still a bit of a debate as to whether or not even current micro-red-dots are truly durable enough. I mean, I read that it is and all, but whenever I speak privately to friends, they've all got a tale to tell. Well, that, and my eyesight's still workable, for the time being.

The Dueck Defense RBU would be what I would start off with, if I shot a Block, and wanted to start pursuing this - to test the waters to see if I wanna really swim there. Either that, or long-term borrow a friend's RMR'ed gun, and really give it a good run before you switch.

I think that I'm eventually going to NEED to go this route, given how bad my eyes are.

[Mr. Glock]

Have you tried fiber optic sights (iron sights)?

Yes. It's not that I can't see the sights (either stock Glock big white dot- which I love- or the fiber optic front on a Sig -shhhh, don't tell anyone). I'm just not as exact as I think I could be with an illuminated dot (and as exact as I was 20 years ago with irons). The big advantage as I see it is the single focal plane of a red dot.

I don't like those little tiny dot sights though, always been hard to see.

Plus, the fiber front sights tend to break more easily vs Glock steel (or even plastic) sights.

[LegoGlock]

I really like Steve Fishers take on them. It really comes down to the reps like anything...In the next year I may look into a set up. ATEI RM07 seems to be well liked overall set up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVVyFORQaZc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Mr. Glock]

Allen

Sighting in on a red dot is a bit like using a handgun hunting scope. If you raise the gun and look for the scope/dot, you'll never find it. If you see the target and raise the gun, the reticle will be there. The minor difference with the red dot pistol is you index the irons and the dot appears.

And, you need suppressor height sights, to co-witness over the red dot body. The new Glocks that are cut for a red dot don't have them.

High cost of entry to try it out- suppressor night sights, RMR, slide cut - that's getting up there, nearing $1k. So, then I'd have one gun with a red dot and a bunch without. Would I then be creating a bad bit of training for myself by only using a red dot on one gun, when I carry different guns?

[Morne]

I love my red dot sight on my hunting .357 Mag revolver. Enabled me to take a headshot on a doe a few years back that would've been tough with iron sights.

No experience yet with RMR on carry pistols though I have one on an AR-15 .300 AAC BLK pistol. It's epic. I can just about shoot to a rifleman standard with that beauty on 25m reduced size targets.

I am occasionally tempted to get a RMR equipped pistol, too. Usually you only see them on semi-autos, though. My F&G experience this year has re-affirmed my desire to be a wheelgun guy. Wheelguns, unless for hunting, really should only have iron (or fiber optic) sights.

[CCIman]

Big Learning curve with the RDS.

My very personal experience:

Pros:
Tacticool Sure they are cool and tactical, and makes your gun look bigger and badder, and makes you look like you know what you're doing.
intimidates your competitors, and others on the range, looks good in movies
both eyes open
night sights are BUS - great for low light situations, especially if you need glasses to see. (you can see the dot without glasses- nightsights, not so much without your glasses)- so for home or bedside defense, these are really a great option, next to the shotgun.
some are auto on/off and adjust to ambient light (could be a con or pro)

Cons:
If you've been shooting, and sight picturing the irons in the daylight most of your 20 years of pistol shooting life, looking for the dot needs some training, and lots of range time if you think you would be EDC it.
Dot floats above (higher) where your irons would normally be, so when you transition back and forth from plain guns to those with RDS, you muscle memory needs transitioning. Standing Combat grip stance changes ever so slightly - off position, unusual shooting positons change too.
Cost of hardware vs improvement achieved
You may want to mod your grip- with RDS will tend to point high on any gun with a backstrap hump- using a grip spacer at top of grip will point more naturally but alters the grip
Maintenance, zeroing and batt changes
Pick the right reticle- you need a larger (say 7 MOA) for pistol vs rifle

[TSiWRX]

Allen

Sighting in on a red dot is a bit like using a handgun hunting scope. If you raise the gun and look for the scope/dot, you'll never find it. If you see the target and raise the gun, the reticle will be there.

Ah, no worries my friend, that is understood http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=85368" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My earliest experience with a red-dot mounted on a pistol's slide was back in 2001-2, with one of my airsoft pistols built (yeah, some guy in Hong Kong actually milled a slide and everything US CUstoms held the piece for about two weeks, and the agent who called me said it was the most beautiful gun she'd ever seen) with a DOCTERSight on it.

The minor difference with the red dot pistol is you index the irons and the dot appears.

But wouldn't this effect a net gain of nothing (speed-wise) with the dot, then?

I've read about (and tried, with only limited success - again, this is no-one's fault but my own, as I have not seriously pursued this track) tracking the front sight during press-out in order to get a lead on the index, but if one's actually indexing the full set of irons, front and rear, in order to achieve the alignment necessary to bring the dot into view and on-target, wouldn't that in-part, if not in-full, defeat one of the biggest advantages of the dot, namely, speed?

And, you need suppressor height sights, to co-witness over the red dot body.

Hence the Dueck item as a trial run. That way, your monetary loss is only in the mount itself, if you decide that you don't like the slide-mounted RDS setup. With its own backup sights in-place, you don't need to invest in suppressor sights right-away, nor needing the slide to be milled at this stage.

The new Glocks that are cut for a red dot don't have them.

Those Blocks barely come with sights, anyway!

High cost of entry to try it out- suppressor night sights, RMR, slide cut - that's getting up there, nearing $1k.

See above.

So, then I'd have one gun with a red dot and a bunch without. Would I then be creating a bad bit of training for myself by only using a red dot on one gun, when I carry different guns?

That's the thing - I couldn't index the dot well at all.

I'm sure that I can train myself to it, but at that point, I think I would feel compelled to transition all of my defensive handguns that way. I've got this weird compulsion with consistency....

LegoGlock and I were talking about this a few weeks back, punting around these very same ideas (including that video, IIRC), and I think that back then I forgot to mention one critical point:

That many shooters who have transitioned to the slide-mounted RDSs say/write that they've found that through the diligent practice necessary to be able to effect the consistent presentations that allow for the dot to be indexed properly/quickly, they've found that they're actually indexing their other same-platform guns more consistently, too. That by pursuing a more demanding task, it's in-effect caused them to take the slop out of the physical process that they've never noticed before.

I can't attest to the truth of this assertion, however, for as I noted previously, I do not have sufficient time-on-task.

[Mr. Glock]

So, for indexing the red dot. The way I understand it is, if you are a half decent shooter, you get to the point that the sights are largely aligned when you bring up the gun...your muscle memory orients the gun. Pull the irons off, and you'll still hit decently well at closer ranges.

So, you aren't really indexing the irons fully, just getting in the muscle memory range. And then the dot is right at/above the front sight.

That's the theory, anyway.

I do have time at task of shooting a magnified traditional hunting handgun scope, which is why I make the comparison as it seems similar. It might not be, but seems close.

[TSiWRX]

^ Ah, I get what you're saying. That makes sense.

So, here's the problem: when I get the gun out to full presentation, I do achieve a proper sight package with my irons. But with the dot, I wind up more often than not trying to get it into the window.

To me, this means that there's something mechanically off with my presentation. That there's some kind of subconscious or less-conscious alignment/tracking of the sights going up to full presentation and that by the time it's up there, my sight package is there. But that's not translating to the dot. So I believe that there's a lack of sufficient consistency or sufficiently refined consistency.

I don't make any claims to be halfway decent, though. Just somewhat decent. So maybe that's the real root of the problem!

My understanding is that getting that dot in the window is just a force-of-habit mechanical index that, while it may be aided by tracking a highly visualized front sight or slide position into the extension, that "getting to the dot" is independent of getting to the iron sights' sight-picture: that to acquire/refine the latter is what becomes the speed differential between one and the other.

But I'm playing with a half-deck, here, as I've never really seriously tried for an extended period of time, a micro slide-mounted-RDS equipped handgun.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

Has anyone mentioned condensation on the sight?

I am one of those weirdos that shoots when the rain and snow is coming down.

It's difficult enough to wipe off my eyeglasses, let alone trying to clear the ocular side of a mini sight. The objective side of the lens is usually a bit easier to wipe off.

The problem is having time to clear the lens. If you NEED to use your gun in a self-defense situation, not only do you not have time to clear the lens, you CAN'T SEE YOUR IRONS through the lens.

Just something to consider.

[Mr. Glock]

That point about rain & snow is very interesting....I haven't seen that brought up anywhere.

[TSiWRX]

Indeed, that's a great point, MWSY.

As with Mr. Glock, I also don't know why I've never really thought about this in the daily concealed-carry context.

Researching this a bit via Google searches, it seems that it can indeed manifest, with users of the setup reminding readers that as with anything else, there's pros and cons, and this is one such limitation of this particular setup.