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ORC 2923.201
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:46 pm
by drc
If this has been discussed here, sorry, I ran a search and could not find a result, unless it was buried.
Over on another firearm's related site, it was being discussed about removing the manufacturer's name from a firearm. One of the posters brought up this section of the ORC
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.201" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Possessing a defaced firearm.
(A) No person shall do either of the following:
(1) Change, alter, remove, or obliterate the name of the manufacturer, model, manufacturer's serial number, or other mark of identification on a firearm.
(2) Possess a firearm knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that the name of the manufacturer, model, manufacturer's serial number, or other mark of identification on the firearm has been changed, altered, removed, or obliterated.
(B)
(1) Whoever violates division (A)(1) of this section is guilty of defacing identification marks of a firearm. Except as otherwise provided in this division, defacing identification marks of a firearm is a misdemeanor of the first degree. If the offender previously has been convicted of or pleaded guilty to a violation of division (A)(1) of this section, defacing identification marks of a firearm is a felony of the fourth degree.
(2) Whoever violates division (A)(2) of this section is guilty of possessing a defaced firearm. Except as otherwise provided in this division, possessing a defaced firearm is a misdemeanor of the first degree. If the offender previously has been convicted of or pleaded guilty to a violation of division (A)(2) of this section, possessing a defaced firearm is a felony of the fourth degree.
(C) Division (A) of this section does not apply to any firearm on which no manufacturer's serial number was inscribed at the time of its manufacture.
Effective Date: 09-28-2006
Has anyone here had any clarification as to whether the ORC is dealing with a firearm in the federal definition of a firearm, ie: the frame or other serial nbr'ed part ?
Or, as has been speculated on that site, that rebarreling a rifle, putting a new/different slide on a 1911, etc could be illegal in the state of Ohio ?
I have single shot BPCR rifles with removable, interchangeable barrels. So if the law (as written) does not deal with the receiver/serial nbr'ed part, as opposed to the entire firearm, with the name of the company on the barrel, taking off the barrel so that it is not on the receiver is a crime ?
Thanks !
dave
Re: ORC 2923.201
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:25 pm
by BobK
drc wrote:Has anyone here had any clarification as to whether the ORC is dealing with a firearm in the federal definition of a firearm, ie: the frame or other serial nbr'ed part ?
Or, as has been speculated on that site, that rebarreling a rifle, putting a new/different slide on a 1911, etc could be illegal in the state of Ohio ?
The ORC uses the firearm definition in RC 2923.11(B), not the federal definition:
RC 2923.11(B)(1) "Firearm" means any deadly weapon capable of expelling or propelling one or more projectiles by the action of an explosive or combustible propellant. "Firearm" includes an unloaded firearm, and any firearm that is inoperable but that can readily be rendered operable.
(2) When determining whether a firearm is capable of expelling or propelling one or more projectiles by the action of an explosive or combustible propellant, the trier of fact may rely upon circumstantial evidence, including, but not limited to, the representations and actions of the individual exercising control over the firearm.
I do not consider a new barrel, a different slide, grips, or other ordinary replacement parts to be a "firearm" under the Ohio definition.
Re: ORC 2923.201
Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:47 pm
by cashman966
drc wrote:If this has been discussed here, sorry, I ran a search and could not find a result, unless it was buried.
Over on another firearm's related site, it was being discussed about removing the manufacturer's name from a firearm. One of the posters brought up this section of the ORC
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.201" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Possessing a defaced firearm.
(A) No person shall do either of the following:
(1) Change, alter, remove, or obliterate the name of the manufacturer, model, manufacturer's serial number, or other mark of identification on a firearm.
(2) Possess a firearm knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that the name of the manufacturer, model, manufacturer's serial number, or other mark of identification on the firearm has been changed, altered, removed, or obliterated.
(B)
(1) Whoever violates division (A)(1) of this section is guilty of defacing identification marks of a firearm. Except as otherwise provided in this division, defacing identification marks of a firearm is a misdemeanor of the first degree. If the offender previously has been convicted of or pleaded guilty to a violation of division (A)(1) of this section, defacing identification marks of a firearm is a felony of the fourth degree.
(2) Whoever violates division (A)(2) of this section is guilty of possessing a defaced firearm. Except as otherwise provided in this division, possessing a defaced firearm is a misdemeanor of the first degree. If the offender previously has been convicted of or pleaded guilty to a violation of division (A)(2) of this section, possessing a defaced firearm is a felony of the fourth degree.
(C) Division (A) of this section does not apply to any firearm on which no manufacturer's serial number was inscribed at the time of its manufacture.
Effective Date: 09-28-2006
Has anyone here had any clarification as to whether the ORC is dealing with a firearm in the federal definition of a firearm, ie: the frame or other serial nbr'ed part ?
Or, as has been speculated on that site, that rebarreling a rifle, putting a new/different slide on a 1911, etc could be illegal in the state of Ohio ?
I have single shot BPCR rifles with removable, interchangeable barrels. So if the law (as written) does not deal with the receiver/serial nbr'ed part, as opposed to the entire firearm, with the name of the company on the barrel, taking off the barrel so that it is not on the receiver is a crime ?
Thanks !
dave
I don't think the word "remove" as used in this statute refers to the removal and replacement of an original part. It refers to the physical removal of the mark from the part itself. I don't see how the removal of the part from the rest of the firearm would be a violation.
Re: ORC 2923.201
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:48 am
by Curzyk
I wonder how this code applies to the bar code sticker that Sig Sauer puts on the slides of their M11-A1 handguns..
Re: ORC 2923.201
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:57 am
by AlanM
Curzyk wrote:I wonder how this code applies to the bar code sticker that Sig Sauer puts on the slides of their M11-A1 handguns..
SLIDE????? My old, tired, eyes seem to see that sticker on the FRAME of the pistol, not the slide.
Did you mean SIDE?
Re: ORC 2923.201
Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:33 pm
by gaptrick
Interesting, and something i haden't considered. Im throwing around the idea of cerecoting a RIA 1911 in FDE and the sandblasting process may remove the manufacturer's name. But it IS only on the slide....
Re: ORC 2923.201
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:27 am
by AlanM
My 1911's slide has NO identifying markings on it at all. All identifying markings on the gun are stamped/engraved on the side of the frame.
Re: ORC 2923.201
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:26 pm
by MyWifeSaidYes
Hmm.
This one may be a candidate for one of those 'clean-up' amendments.
If federal law only worries about the serial number, I think Ohio should follow suit.
If it is 'operable' and has a manufacturer name on the slide, changing that slide would violate 2923.201.
If your grip panels have a manufacturer's logo, you can't change them unless your new grips have the same logo.
This should be an easy pitch to a sympathetic ear in the senate. Even Section C of that statute ONLY applies to serial numbers.
Re: ORC 2923.201
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:54 pm
by JustaShooter
Even that may not be sufficient, MWSY - many handguns have the SN on the frame, slide and barrel, and some rifles have it just about everywhere.
Re: ORC 2923.201
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 6:25 pm
by JimE
JustaShooter wrote:Even that may not be sufficient, MWSY - many handguns have the SN on the frame, slide and barrel, and some rifles have it just about everywhere.
The only serial number & markings that count are on what is considered the "frame" or "receiver".
Most pistols, that is on the lower, but on a Ruger MkI/II/III it is the upper portion. Different makers do different things.
The secondary markings are only to prove the parts are matched to, and original to the firearm. Replacing a barrel does not alter the serial number of the receiver.
Re: ORC 2923.201
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:08 pm
by JustaShooter
JimE wrote:JustaShooter wrote:Even that may not be sufficient, MWSY - many handguns have the SN on the frame, slide and barrel, and some rifles have it just about everywhere.
The only serial number & markings that count are on what is considered the "frame" or "receiver".
Most pistols, that is on the lower, but on a Ruger MkI/II/III it is the upper portion. Different makers do different things.
The secondary markings are only to prove the parts are matched to, and original to the firearm. Replacing a barrel does not alter the serial number of the receiver.
You should read the rest of the posts above. From a Federal perspective you are correct, but from an Ohio perspective it looks like any SN or Manufacturer's name anywhere on the gun can't be removed obliterated, etc.
Re: ORC 2923.201
Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:07 pm
by Brian D.
MyWifeSaidYes wrote:
This should be an easy pitch to a sympathetic ear in the senate. Even Section C of that statute ONLY applies to serial numbers.
What do you mean "easy pitch"? That the House/Senate would only require one two year term to do the fix?
Personally I have always gone by the federal standard when it comes to changing parts etc. That state law is just so poorly written and obviously not in line with the intent to keep criminals from destroying or defacing firearms from an evidentiary standpoint.
Maybe I've read the tea leaves wrong but this statute seems like on of those "pile on" kind of laws only charged against multiple crime type offenders.
Re: ORC 2923.201
Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:22 pm
by JimE
[quote="JustaShooter"]
You should read the rest of the posts above. From a Federal perspective you are correct, but from an Ohio perspective it looks like any SN or Manufacturer's name anywhere on the gun can't be removed obliterated, etc.
In that case, every custom gunsmith, and firearm manufacture has violated Ohio law.
Not to mention the thousands of mis-matched C&R firearms that were imported in an altered condition.
My guess is someone tried to write a Ohio version of the federal reg's, and screwed it up.
But even more important, has anyone been charged for changing parts ?
Re: ORC 2923.201
Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 4:21 pm
by JustaShooter
JimE wrote:JustaShooter wrote:
You should read the rest of the posts above. From a Federal perspective you are correct, but from an Ohio perspective it looks like any SN or Manufacturer's name anywhere on the gun can't be removed obliterated, etc.
In that case, every custom gunsmith, and firearm manufacture has violated Ohio law.
Not to mention the thousands of mis-matched C&R firearms that were imported in an altered condition.
Yup, a plain reading of the ORC seems to mean exactly that.
JimE wrote:My guess is someone tried to write a Ohio version of the federal reg's, and screwed it up.
But even more important, has anyone been charged for changing parts ?
That is exactly what I think happened as well. I don't know one way or another if anyone has been charged under that section for anything other than altering the markings on the frame.
Re: ORC 2923.201
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:32 am
by CroManGun
Curzyk wrote:I wonder how this code applies to the bar code sticker that Sig Sauer puts on the slides of their M11-A1 handguns..
As far as I'm concerned, that STICKER carries no more weight than a DO NOT REMOVE tag on a mattress. If it does come off, what proof is there that it was ever there in the first place? Not the same as removing or altering permanently stamped or engraved identification features.