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I asked a question on another forum a month or so ago-
What if I bought a gun that was supposed to be a C&R and it turned out it wasn't (too new) by no deliberate action on the buyer or seller's part? Basically, the best answer I got was "Ask ATF" so I did, and here's their answer.
Hi, I have a curio & relic ffl. I recently was going to purchase a Smith & Wesson revolver from the Gunbroker auction site. The seller sharers my question and identified the gun as a 1963 which would be c&r eligible. Before I could bid, the seller sent another email and said they had made a mistake and it was actually a 1968 which is not c&r eligible.
My question is, if I had purchased the gun in good faith as c&r, had it shipped to my home, and then discovered the gun was not c&r eligible, what should I do? I can't legally receive a gun that is not c&r. Obviously nobody wanted to get arrested or lose their license! Thanks for your answer.
The ATF's Reply:
Thank you for your inquiry to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). This is in response to your recent email, in which you asked about receiving a curio and relic firearm.
In the particular scenario that you mention, you could simply treat it as you would any other firearms acquisition that you utilize your C & R license for. While the shipping and receiving of a non curio & relic firearm may be a violation of the regulations, nothing would be gained by returning the firearm to the shipper.
Please be aware that there may be State laws that pertain to your proposed activity. You need to contact your State’s Attorney General Office to inquire about the laws and possible restrictions in your State concerning firearms. A list of their offices is available online at http://www.naag.org.
We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. Should you have additional questions, please contact your local ATF office. A listing of ATF office phone numbers can be found at: http://www.atf.gov/content/contact-us.
All I can say is, Wow. That's not really what I was expecting the ATF to say. Not that I don't like the answer, quite the contrary. It's just that LOGIC and the federal bureaucracy don't usually go together!
"20% accurate as usual, Morty."
Striking down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering! Carpe Noctem- we get more done after 2 am than most people do all day.
Mr. Glock wrote:So, the next question would be, how do you sell it since it is listed in your C&R book but is now known by you to not really be C&R eligible?
Not being C&R, I don't know how it all works, but it seems you still have an issue.
He would have to hold on to it for another 5 years so it would be eligible.
The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny
Mark
NRA Training Counselor-Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun, Reloading, Personal Protection in the Home, Personal Protection Outside the Home, Home Firearms Safety, Chief RSO. NRA Endowment Life member.
Unfortunately, now that this is posted somewhere on a forum - internet goofs will take it and "run with it".
"I had no idea that it was not C&R eligible....Sorry....
I heard/read an online ATF response that said it was OK in this situation, can you please write me back and confirm this ATF stance....etc"
Next thing you know, ATF will write another letter officially shutting this one down, or writing you back to bring your gun to the local authorities or face prosecution, or making C&R transfers harder to transact.
Just like the questions: "This darned Sig pistol brace sure looks like a stock to me....Did you ATF guys really, seriously mean to say it was legal??? Please clarify, because you must be getting 100 letters a day for an official personal response to this query: Is it still legal if I use my pistol like a rifle-- you know, put it on my shoulder and turn my pistol into a SBR, even though you said it was OK for a pistol brace. What if i post you tube videos showing others how close and similar it is to use just like an SBR, is it still legal and officially legal?
BTW did you guys know that green tip surplus mil ammo I've been selling all over the internet is potentially metal piercing---please look into that. Ask your boss, Obama what he thinks, and issue an OFFICIAL opinion. Thanks for the time."
Here's the problem as I understand it - the question posed is hey, the transfer took place and now I have possession of this thing. The ATF is basically saying well don't transfer it back. I'm guessing that's because then it would be a knowing violation and you will have broken the rules twice.
It's not an illegal firearm nor is it illegal for you to possess it. The way it was received was improper but that's water under the bridge at this point in the question.
I read the ATF's response as pretty much Shoot, Shovel, Shut Up. Because like the guy who accidentally gets his loaded carry gun past TSA absolutely no good can come from him speaking up trying to make it right.
My feelung about c&r is its convenient for the stuff I like to get anyway: older revolvers. Honestly if u last a 1964 s&w model 10 and a 1966 s&w model 10 on the take next to each other and ask you which one is c&r there is no way to tell except by serial number reference. The 2-year-older one is not "less dangerouser" or "more obsolete". They are pretty much identical. My feeling us that once a certain class is c&r, all of 'em should be. The 10-5 &-6 started in 1961 and ran to 1977 when they became the.-7 & -8.
It comes to serial number today if a -5 or -6 is c&r. Imho, if one is, they all should be.
"20% accurate as usual, Morty."
Striking down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering! Carpe Noctem- we get more done after 2 am than most people do all day.
Sounds like the ATF was just happy that you would have gotten stuck with it.
As mreising said, you would have to keep that firearm in your inventory until it was old enough to transfer as a C&R or until you upgrade or terminate your FFL.
MyWifeSaidYes wrote:Sounds like the ATF was just happy that you would have gotten stuck with it.
As mreising said, you would have to keep that firearm in your inventory until it was old enough to transfer as a C&R or until you upgrade or terminate your FFL.
Or transfer it to an 01.
"20% accurate as usual, Morty."
Striking down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not bickering! Carpe Noctem- we get more done after 2 am than most people do all day.
MyWifeSaidYes wrote:Sounds like the ATF was just happy that you would have gotten stuck with it.
As mreising said, you would have to keep that firearm in your inventory until it was old enough to transfer as a C&R or until you upgrade or terminate your FFL.
Or transfer it to an 01.
Would you be able to? You can't transfer a new gun in (legally) but you would be able to transfer one out?
CCIman wrote:What answer did you want, need, or expect?
Unfortunately, now that this is posted somewhere on a forum - internet goofs will take it and "run with it".
"I had no idea that it was not C&R eligible....Sorry....
I heard/read an online ATF response that said it was OK in this situation, can you please write me back and confirm this ATF stance....etc"
Consider this: the ATF response would probably have been different if the inquiry had been made from the perspective of the transferor.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
CCIman wrote:What answer did you want, need, or expect?
Unfortunately, now that this is posted somewhere on a forum - internet goofs will take it and "run with it".
"I had no idea that it was not C&R eligible....Sorry....
I heard/read an online ATF response that said it was OK in this situation, can you please write me back and confirm this ATF stance....etc"
Consider this: the ATF response would probably have been different if the inquiry had been made on one of the other days of the week which end in "Y".
Fixed it for ya...
I don't know if I would trust ANY opinion coming from the ATF at this point.
Couple of years back SOG sold some HiPowers as C&R and I purchased one. Within 10 days, SOG came back and said that they were not C&R's and they all had to be returned. In light of that experience, I am surprised by the reply you received.
--
Mike
The fight will not be the way you want it to be. The fight will be the way it is. You must be flexible enough to adapt. -- Unknown
NRA Benefactor Life & Golden Eagle Member
NRA Certified Pistol, Rifle and Personal Protection In The Home Instructor
Law Enforcement Sales, Retired
mbott wrote:Couple of years back SOG sold some HiPowers as C&R and I purchased one. Within 10 days, SOG came back and said that they were not C&R's and they all had to be returned. In light of that experience, I am surprised by the reply you received.
I'm not surprised at all. It's like I noted earlier. You weren't in any trouble. But they were.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
