Ohioans For Concealed Carry Discussion Forums

I took my CHL class at Commence Fire in Cleveland about a month ago. Can't recommend their services enough. Very professional and exceeded my expectations.

Although I scored 100% on my shooting exam during the CHL class, I don't have consistent groups. I have always been a "low-left shooter." I knew I needed to improve my pistol work. I saw that Commence Fire has a "Shoot with the Instructors" class about every other week. For $40 you get 2 hours of range time and essentially 1 instructor for every 2 shooters. I'll post a picture of my target below for an example of the results.



They quickly diagnosed my problems and finally gave me some good drills to identify what I was doing wrong. My trigger squeeze wasn't consistent and I was slightly anticipating the gun firing.

I think the reason I'm hitting slightly to the left now is that my Trijicon Sights on my Glock have a wide rear "U" channel. This is for quick target acquisition. This means there is lots of room on both sides of the front sight as you view it through the rear sight. I tend to favor the more to the left. As I identified this, the shots started coming towards the center of the target.

In my mind, this is the best $40 in range time you can spend in the Cleveland area.

+1 on their "Shoot with the Instructors".

Note: I'm not sure that this class is available for anyone who has NOT either done their CHL class or their Basic Marksmanship class.

JonasM wrote:+1 on their "Shoot with the Instructors".

Note: I'm not sure that this class is available for anyone who has NOT either done their CHL class or their Basic Marksmanship class.

You have to have taken some handgun class.

http://www.commencefire.com/course/shoo ... ctors.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Requirements:
• Have completed a Basic, Concealed Carry, or Advance
Course. (does not have to be ours)

I keep telling people that this is one of the best bang-for-buck classes.

Pecker, see if you can't make it out to one of Chris Cerino's "Marksmanship Enhancement Clinics" (pistol), too. That'll also really help you dial-in.

Different people have different sight preferences. Over time, you'll find yours.

You suck. You completely missed the target on the right.

pirateguy191 wrote:You suck. You completely missed the target on the right.

Why thanks for noticing.

I'm actually signed up for a class next month called, get this, "YOU SUCK, It's not the gun."

http://www.michigantrainer.com/index.ph ... -2-2-2-21/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hopefully will have my issues ironed out by the end of that class.

FWIW, I have no idea what sized targets you're shooting at.

What we use for our classes are 8.5 x 11" sheets of paper.
Pretty good representation of COM.

Our running joke is, if you are consistently hitting anywhere on that sheet of paper those are good hits.
You'll never hear a bad guy say "Your groups suck."

Glad to hear the OP's "problems" were diagnosed and is doing better!

Jake wrote: You'll never hear a bad guy say "Your groups suck."

No doubt!

On a related note, IaNaD (I am Not a Doctor) but I've been told that it is better to not group tightly in a self-defense situation. In one of my training classes we were practicing double-taps and I was grouping them pretty tightly together to where they were almost touching most of the time and the instructor wanted me to speed it up, I was taking too long to re-acquire my sight picture. He told me that two widely-spaced wounds would take the bad guy down faster than two closely spaced ones. It makes sense to me, but as I said IaNaD - anyone else hear this before, and know if there is any truth to it?

JustaShooter wrote:

Jake wrote: You'll never hear a bad guy say "Your groups suck."

No doubt!

On a related note, IaNaD (I am Not a Doctor) but I've been told that it is better to not group tightly in a self-defense situation. In one of my training classes we were practicing double-taps and I was grouping them pretty tightly together to where they were almost touching most of the time and the instructor wanted me to speed it up, I was taking too long to re-acquire my sight picture. He told me that two widely-spaced wounds would take the bad guy down faster than two closely spaced ones. It makes sense to me, but as I said IaNaD - anyone else hear this before, and know if there is any truth to it?

Sounds like conjecture that can never really be proven. In a real life situation stress will open up your groups. So get them as close together in training and real life things will take care of them selves.

In one of my training classes we were practicing double-taps and I was grouping them pretty tightly together to where they were almost touching most of the time and the instructor wanted me to speed it up, I was taking too long to re-acquire my sight picture.

I'd agree with this.
As long as your increase in speed didn't equate unsafe firearm handling.

Eventually, you'll find your "breaking point" in regards to speed and accuracy.

Jake wrote:

In one of my training classes we were practicing double-taps and I was grouping them pretty tightly together to where they were almost touching most of the time and the instructor wanted me to speed it up, I was taking too long to re-acquire my sight picture.

I'd agree with this.
As long as your increase in speed didn't equate unsafe firearm handling.

Eventually, you'll find your "breaking point" in regards to speed and accuracy.

Oh, no doubt - I wasn't questioning that part of the instruction. I was absolutely taking too long, I needed to transition mentally from "target shooting" to "self defense" and not worry about making nice tight groups. But his reasoning for big groups = good thing has stuck with me over the years and I was just wondering what others thought about it.

^ Except when fatigue comes in, it's all a balance between speed and accuracy.

Yes, "combat effective" is all that's really needed, but if someone can only shoot "combat effective" shots when they're practicing solo and taking their time or when they're being run hard by an instructor, what's going to happen to that person when they're *really* under "do or die" stress? Not good, right?

So my training is simple - no matter the distance, I want to drill the tightest groups I can as fast as I can. In doing so, I can always better myself: there's always something better to reach for - I can always be faster than I was yesterday, I can always shoot better than I did yesterday.

Pecker wrote: I'm actually signed up for a class next month called, get this, "YOU SUCK, It's not the gun."

http://www.michigantrainer.com/index.ph ... -2-2-2-21/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hopefully will have my issues ironed out by the end of that class.

I'm eager to hear what you have to say about the class. MDFI is highly thought-of.

Pushing left like you did could be any of a number of issues.

Start with your stance. When you're drilling groups, you'll have to play to your natural-point-of-aim a little - and this may take you out of the ideal "combat stance." However, once you find your natural-point-of-aim, you can then refine your lower-body stance to incorporate it, while still maintaining a good, naturally "square" stress presentation and athletic and responsive stance. Work static, then work dynamic.

The next biggest concern would be trigger control. Depending on just how *you* interact with *your* gun, that ideal "meat of the distal joint" contact spot actually may not be where it' is RIGHT FOR YOU. Look up the Haley Strategic Channel on YouTube, and take note of the Trigger Stripe Drill that Ron Avery runs Travis Haley through. Print out the targets at Haley Strategic's Blog, and start slow. Figure out how *you* need to finish on your trigger to achieve "flat."

Play with your dominant grip's thumb. That can also influence your shots. As many advanced classes will show you, a good grip (one that's both physically strong as well as mechanically sound) can really hide many other fundamental errors. However, when you're trying to drill single-hole groups, those errors will show.

I was literally drilling cloverleafs in one of my earlier SWI sessions - but like you, was off to the left. On a whim, one of the AIs asked me to just go with a lower-body stance that was more natural to me, instead of forcefully squaring up. That brought me back completely on-target, right on the bull.

I mentioned Cerino's seminar above because he helped identify that my dominant thumb was helping me throw surgical shots on an inconsistently inconsistent basis.

This past summer, Costa taught me that my trigger control really, really needed work, and what's more, my stance was inconsistent - causing me to both lose speed when engaging multiple targets as well as when I shot more dynamically.

I worked extensively on my grip the first year-and-a-half or so of my shooting: I have a strong, mechanically sound grip. I honestly did not realize how much more important trigger control was until just this past summer, and this was mainly because my grip managed to hide so much of my trigger inconsistencies (don't believe this can be true? try it at 7 yards on an IPSC target, hold center-mass, and I guaranty that if you truly have a good grip, someone else can come stick a screwdriver or chopstick through your trigger guard and knock out rounds, and you'll still have every shot in the A-zone ). How fanatical was I about the grip? http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/def ... gment.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Aside from those mentioned above, Bill Holcomb (of Three Tango Firearms Academy) taught me the importance of "aim small, miss small" and the importance of self-guided practice. Keith and Kyle taught me to forget about what's downrange and just focus hard on the front sight: that groups happen on their own. Ryan (one of CFA's AIs) taught me not to freak out when running stoppage clearances. Ron Lauinger of LMI (sadly, he's no longer teaching firearms, however, I can earnestly recommend him as an integrated combatives instructor) taught me the importance of the ritual. Bob Vogel taught me that pressure is relative - laugh about it and get it out of the way: you're your own worst enemy.

Pecker wrote:
Sounds like conjecture that can never really be proven. In a real life situation stress will open up your groups. So get them as close together in training and real life things will take care of them selves.

I tend to agree with this line of thought, based on my time in EMS in an urban area. Haven't been on a zillion shooting calls myself but those of us in the profession tend to share our combined experiences at classes and such.

I remember reading about one of Jeff Cooper's students at Gunsite having to defend himself with a handgun, apparently quite successfully. At first the coroner disputed that the good guy had fired twice and made two hits on the dead bad guy, because there was only one entrance wound, no exit. (You might see where this is going.) After some discusssion the coroner went back and dug into the hole more deeply, finding a second bullet from the good guy's weapon. Obviously this was in earlier times when coroners didn't have the ability to scan the entire body before doing any surgery.

My take is that it was a combination of good shooting and some random dumb luck. Important thing to keep in mind is that the bad guy was dropped in his tracks and the fight was over.

Speaking of Commence Fire. I need to take their Advance Handgun I once they get the schedule up for 2013

Kgolf31 wrote:Speaking of Commence Fire. I need to take their Advance Handgun I once they get the schedule up for 2013

I've had mixed results at SWTI at CommenceFire, but have totally enjoyed the Advanced SWTI, and the outdoor Advanced Handgun 1 and 2, as well as their Shotgun class. Those classes fill up quickly, check their website for postings. I took my CHL there and I can't think of better instructors for newbies and on the legal aspects of CC.