My bullet is bigger than yours syndrome

[Nomad]

I always see people talking about the size of bullet and how they would never carry a .380 or a 9mm. You really have to understand what you’re actually expecting of your pistol and how you’re actually going to use it. I am not saying a small .22 is as good as a .45apc but it can be just as deadly. I did do a search on this forum and seen a few posts on Gomez-Traing.com but I didn’t see any reference to the video posted below. I felt this was a very informative video, I hope you do as well and it helps some people understand what to expect and look for when they consider a carry weapon. Shoot strait, obey the laws and be safe.

Click here to view the "9mm vs. .45---AGAIN!!!" video.

[TSiWRX]

The modern 9mm JHP is a very effective round, there's no doubt about it.

My SD/HD pistols are 9s, and that's what I train with - by all counts, I probably put 40K rounds of various 9s downrange last year.

I feel that I'm reasonably accurate with the 9 and that I can mitigate its recoil pretty well, and am able to shoot it at-speed.

That said, a 9 may not expand, but a .45 will never shrink. Certainly, .22 and .380 are lethal - even a BB gun can be. But there are also things to be said about the pure penetration and intermediate barrier performance of the .357 SIG and the .40 S&W, too.

There's good and bad performance to be had with any caliber - find the one(s) that work; the shooter needs to do his/her homework, just like insuring that the rounds you pick will feed/function your firearm properly and reliably.

Neither the "caliber wars" nor the "shot placement" schools are perfect in and of themselves. Shoot the biggest caliber you can shoot well.


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ETA: You've probably noticed on your searches that I really like Mr. Gomez's stuff. I do hope to study with him some day. He's on my "bucket list."

[Morne]

I am not saying a small .22 is as good as a .45apc but it can be just as deadly.

Let's discuss this more.

You are correct that a .22 can be quite deadly. With equally good placement it could even be as deadly as a .45ACP. But we do not rely on "deadliness" to defend ourselves, we rely on "stopping the threat". That is a different, though somewhat related, standard.

A weapon that causes the BG to die 30 minutes after being struck, say due to blood loss, is not very effective in stopping the threat. The Star Trek phazer set on stun is the ultimate self-defense weapon as it causes the BG to instantly drop in his tracks. Sadly, Ruger does not make a phazer.

So we are left with conventional handgun cartridges. From barrel lengths suitable for concealed carry the only wounding mechanism that matters is permanent cavity. Pistol rounds simply lack the energy for the temporary cavity to matter. So how do you grow the permanent cavity, presuming sufficient penetration to reach vital organs? Easy, you grow the diameter.

Now there are a couple of ways to grow the diameter. You can use a bigger bullet, like the .45ACP, from the start. Or, you can start with a smaller diameter bullet with the potential to expand. With modern bullet design the likelihood of expansion has never been better. Thus, I agree that 9mm is a valid SD choice. As far as .380 goes I would want to at least consider using non-expanding bullets since the penetration may not be adequate if it opens up. When I carried a 9x18 MAK I alternated FMJ and JHP in my magazine for just this reason.

Some cartridges have a history of proven expansion. The .357 Magnum achieved reliable bullet expansion back when bullet technology was in the dark ages. Sometimes you just can't beat raw power. The modern improvements in bullet design have only made this warhorse more impressive.

All that said, and back to your original point, the smaller you go the more careful you need to be in choosing the right carry load. I submit that even the .22 MAG is a valid SD cartridge with the right ammo stuffed in it. Heck, the capacity of that Kel-Tec PMR-30 tickles me enough that I just might have to get one some day.

[Nomad]

I am not favoring any caliber in this post. I think TSiWRX hit what I was trying to bring out when he said "Shoot the biggest caliber you can shoot well." Personally I carry the LCP/CT .380. I live in a small community where the only death you see in a 20 year span will be old age, disease or injury. I have already lived a few of these 20 year spans. Starting to look at a high capacity 9 for when I wonder off too far from home. I have several different caliber of guns but I like the .380 for my carry situation. A friend of my wife had someone beating at her door while she was home a few months ago; we think it was someone who got the wrong house maybe looking for drugs but she has no guns. Fortunately they gave up before the door did. I took her to the range she can shoot a .38 but hates it and tried my LCP and it's recoil plus the size she just couldn't handle. My .45 was out of the question for her she didn't want to shoot it. Then she shot my SR22 pistol and said that’s the only thing she felt comfortable shooting and she did take a gun safety course right before this and heard the .22 is not a good SD choice so she decided not to purchase anything. Since then I have convinced her to get a .22 if that is all she can do and be comfortable with. It is better than the 6 cats she lives with Morne, you are correct I should have use a different term when I said “as deadly” saying “as effective” would have been more appropriate in this post, but both statements are correct. Basically I just wanted to through a little useful information out there for people to see.

[Mustang380gal]

Keep in mind that not all .45s are the same, either.

My carry gun is a compact model .45, and is quite snappy.

A full size 1911 doesn't feel a whole lot different than my Mustang in .380. It is a bit more of a kick, but not too bad. It's the weight of the gun that makes the difference.

[Nomad]

Keep in mind that not all .45s are the same, either.

My carry gun is a compact model .45, and is quite snappy.

A full size 1911 doesn't feel a whole lot different than my Mustang in .380. It is a bit more of a kick, but not too bad. It's the weight of the gun that makes the difference.

Good point, I have noticed my .45 is actually easier to handle than my .380. The .45 the recoil is a little more harsh but due to the size is more managable. But for me the the .380 isn't that bad either.

[TSiWRX]

It's the weight of the gun that makes the difference.

^ Yep, mass dampens recoil.

But at the same time, size - and how that gun "fits" into any given shooter's hands - also should not be discounted. "Perceived recoil" is just that: perceived. Different people will "feel" it differently.

I think that a lot of newcomers to firearms and concealed-carry immediately have this notion that they want the smallest and lightest possible, without any understanding how that drastically affects the shoot-ability of the pistol in a number of very, very important ways. Then, they get out to the range, and it's, like, "whoa, I really don't like that!" Subsequently, they either reason their way into thinking that "oh, that's OK, I'm just going to keep it as my carry gun because, come-on, when will I ever have to use it" - and not realize that the gun itself isn't a magical amulet that wards off evil - or, alternatively, up-size to a comparable full-sized gun for range practice, but never really put the time and work into making sure that they can actually shoot and "run" their carry-gun.

To me, both of those scenarios are losing propositions, and are much, much worse than any considerations of a defensive load's terminal or external ballistics.

[Klingon00]

In engineering, everything's a trade off. Bigger is often better but it has costs that must be paid in other ways. I think when it comes to pistol calibers and modern ammunition, the difference is comparatively very little between 9mm and .45 when you examine terminal ballistics. As stated before, shot placement is a much bigger determining factor on the effectiveness of a shot to stop a bad guy regardless of caliber.

Basically, given equal shot placement, a larger bullet that has more energy will have inherent advantages over a smaller bullet in this regard, even if small. However, other factors should be taken into account such as magazine capacity and/or overall weight of a gun that smaller calibers can allow over larger ones. Also the amount of recoil also has penalties to followup shot speed.

I would be far more worried about getting a gun that is reliable, that you will carry and not leave at home, and that you are willing to shoot often so that you can train to make more reliable shots regardless of the caliber you carry. Unless you are worried about bad guys in body armor or Bears, caliber probably shouldn't be as high on the list of concerns as learning to be effective with what you have (To a certain degree). As the saying goes, you can't miss fast enough to win a firefight.

[Sevens]

I live in a small community where the only death you see in a 20 year span will be old age, disease or injury. I have already lived a few of these 20 year spans.

Really huge hole in this theory, doesn't serve you well in any way, nor anyone who actually subscribes to it.

[Nomad]

I live in a small community where the only death you see in a 20 year span will be old age, disease or injury. I have already lived a few of these 20 year spans.

Really huge hole in this theory, doesn't serve you well in any way, nor anyone who actually subscribes to it.

Just stating the facts it was not ment as a "theory". But thank you for your opinion.

[BobK]

I thought the guy in the video was really boring.

[curmudgeon3]

The heavier/wider the bullet, the better chance it has of breaking (through) the skeletal stuctures.
Every little advantage in a self-defense situation .........

[Mrs. Daspirate]

.22 and .380 may have the ability to be just as lethal and may have the ability to stop the threat just as effectively in a particular scenario, but I do not possess the skill to make them do so as reliably as the larger calibers, in ANY scenario. Thus, the smallest I feel comfortable carrying with my skill level is 9mm. Perhaps if my skill level were higher, that would change. Then again, perhaps not.

[synack2]

I have a 1911 that I carry sometimes. But I normally carry my 9MM Taurus PT-111. I have to say I really like the 9MM. It holds more rounds with less weight, but more importantly it is fast to get back on target for follow up shots. I find it very easy just unload a mag and have it all end up dead center mass. When I try it with my 1911 they are just all over the place compared to the 9.

I look at it this way... What is better, 3 9's in dead center mass, or 1 45 in the middle, one in the shoulder, and one that flew over the BG's head.

I think it is different for everyone. I know a lady that can put 45's dead center mass out of a PT145 like nobody business and always hits low and to the side with a 9mm. Everyones different. The trick is to find what works for you.

9mm vs 45 is an age old discussion, but Its like my wife always says it not how big it is it how you use it.

[jeep45238]

9mm works fine for me, as does .45acp.

However, for the same approximate weight and size gun, I can go from 10 rounds to 17 rounds, and get more rounds on target in the same period of time. Works for me.