Ohioans For Concealed Carry Discussion Forums

I am always working on my marksmanship, and this chart I have been using since I first started shooting pistols.

http://radenheimer.com/pictures/correction_chart2.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Also is there any other references/advice/tools that the long time shooters of this forum may share?

I am always looking for new ways to improve, and continue to be a lifetime student when it comes to firearms.

I'm by no means a long-time shooter , but the drills here are just awesome:

http://pistol-training.com/drills" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Matt Burkett's computer-aided dry-fire drills page can also spice up your practice-life a little, too:

http://www.predatortactical.com/cart.ph ... etail&id=5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rradenheimer wrote:I am always working on my marksmanship, and this chart I have been using since I first started shooting pistols.

http://radenheimer.com/pictures/correction_chart2.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Also is there any other references/advice/tools that the long time shooters of this forum may share?I am always looking for new ways to improve, and continue to be a lifetime student when it comes to firearms.

I like Mr. Ayoob's dissertation; had to read it about ten times to absorb it all, and still go back to it from time to time when those old bad habits creep back in.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob85.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TSiWRX wrote:I'm by no means a long-time shooter , but the drills here are just awesome:

http://pistol-training.com/drills" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Matt Burkett's computer-aided dry-fire drills page can also spice up your practice-life a little, too:

http://www.predatortactical.com/cart.ph ... etail&id=5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks, I am going to have to try some of these! Looks like they would be good for building some muscle memory.

I am thinking about using my projecter on my wall for the dry-fire drills.

curmudgeon3 wrote:

rradenheimer wrote:I am always working on my marksmanship, and this chart I have been using since I first started shooting pistols.

http://radenheimer.com/pictures/correction_chart2.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Also is there any other references/advice/tools that the long time shooters of this forum may share?I am always looking for new ways to improve, and continue to be a lifetime student when it comes to firearms.

I like Mr. Ayoob's dissertation; had to read it about ten times to absorb it all, and still go back to it from time to time when those old bad habits creep back in.

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob85.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks Curmudgeon3, this also was a very informative reference.

One question I had regarding this piece, was handling. I was originally told by my instructor that my main hand should have 20% of my handshake strength, and offhand should have 40-60%. In the article it says to have a tight grip, and it reduces muzzle lift from recoil. I see the physics behind both, so I am going to head to the range after work and compare.

^ Grip is something that you'll have to play with for yourself. There's a lot of different takes on it:

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/def ... gment.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Towards the end (by page 4 and 5), there's an examination of the finer aspects of the grip, as based on several modern top competition shooters. You can see that each has his/her own take on how to skin the cat. It should stand to reason that if someone was more "right" than the others, than he or she should simply dominate all the competitions - but clearly, that's not true, so yes, the variations are all, to some degree or another valid. A lot of this has to do with each person's own unique anatomy, how our muscles link up with our bones, and how we can manipulate that setup to help mitigate recoil and align the sights or otherwise index the muzzle.

Under stress, I find that I instinctively crush-grip: and I crush-grip so hard that I start to shake within just a few seconds of presenting the pistol to full extension (at full-extension, my upper body is in the currently favored "Reverse Chapman" position, with a fully locked-out support wrist, using Middlebrooks' technique). My elbows don't rotate in quite as much as Vogel does with his, nor do I exert nearly the inward torque that he does on each (I'm currently actively playing with this, to see if it helps me), but it's still definitely up there. Hand pressure is "100/100," going as hard as I can from both sides per Magpul, simply because that's very instinctive for me, under-stress. Even so, I really don't find that's where my recoil control is coming from. I get recoil control mainly from that support/reaction/weak-hand full "Roll-Over Lock-Out" as described by Middlebrooks, using that hand's finger to actively cam against the rotation of the gun/muzzle about the axis that arises from the axis of the weapon/dominant hand web-to-beavertail interface. This is, as Middlebrooks' replies on that thread reveals, different from what some other top shooters do in that they have a VERY strong grip (Vogel, Cerino, Costa, Leatham, etc.) and use that to "clamshell" with their support hand, and that some even favor techniques which would multiply this clamshell effect (Vogel, with his arms, the way they're rotated inboard, for example), with the aim of controlling recoil.

Different strokes, different folks. This is why I like going to different schools/instructors - to learn the different techniques and different subtle variations (Vogel spent nearly 30 minutes with us, cold line, on his grip and upper body technique, at this past weekend's 8-hour seminar) so that I can pick what works best for me, based on my physical build and my abilities.

Nevertheless, what this does in allowing me to get my shots on-target and to control the recoil coming from a fast string, I also know is much less than ideal for precision - whether that's surgical precision at closer ranges or simply for longer distance shots. If nothing else, the fatigue from being "100/100" itself cannot be sustained, for such critical shots. So, what am I to do?

I figure that if I were to need to take those shots, then I *must* break out of my fight/flight response. Biologically, I simply need to do so in order to just see the sights. Therefore, I train towards that end - I take a cleansing breath to "break out," I re-distribute my grip mechanics (including flagging of my strong/weapon/dominant hand thumb, a technique that is favored by Cerino), get that sight picture, and then fire.

That's what works, -FOR ME-. That may work just as well for you, less so, or not at all. You've gotta experiment and find what works for you.


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RE: MB's/Predator Tactical dry-fire drills -

rradenheimer wrote: I am thinking about using my projecter on my wall for the dry-fire drills.

Sure! That would be pretty awesome!

But remember you can adjust the target size to-scale, so even if you're stuck in a hotel room, you can still do it easily enough.

This is a good read guys, thanks for posting it. Especially like the drills link!

My buddy Joe and I were using those diagnostic targets one night, and having a particularly bad session.

The target suggested "Get Another Hobby!"....



But it is pretty good....

The tough part is that you need a group of some size before any of this is meaningful.

(It also, IMHO, helps to practice at longer distances than you really care about. 50', for example for Tueller Distance shooters. When you get back down to 20-30', the target now looks like a garbage can lid....)

Another thing I ran into.... I started using a cane about three years ago. (Sammy's fault.) I find my right wrist is stronger, and I shoot better now.... Nothing much else has changed, except that I'm older ....

I've also found that my weak hand should have nothing at all to do with the grip on the gun, but rather just be a support item. It's not pulling or pushing, then, nor am I having to "fight" it's effect. Seems to work for me, but YMMV.

For SD, getting six or so shots into a 6" circle at about 30' is where we need to be. Cloverleafing .22's isn't necessary .

Another thing I ran into: Joe's got a Ruger .22 (can't think of the model - it's the one you really don't want to take apart for cleaning), and it's got a really bad front sight. His age/eyesight are such that he sometimes uses the wrong part of the front sight as the top. Going for a standard picture (I think that gun wants a center hold) can put him 6" high at 30' real easily if he's not paying attention. This, of course, is harmless for paper-punching, but what it boils down to is to buy and practice with guns who's sight picture is nearly identical, or at least very similar. I've got a couple with XS sights on them - the rear sight is a very flat "V". Fortunately, "center the front blade in the opening in the rear sight" works just about as well either way for me (the XS sight is really quick), but that's about as far in the "non-standard" direction that I'd like to go

Regards,

I'm going to hitch a ride on Stu's dissertation, as a good foil for my own thoughts.

SMMAssociates wrote: (It also, IMHO, helps to practice at longer distances than you really care about. 50', for example for Tueller Distance shooters. When you get back down to 20-30', the target now looks like a garbage can lid....)

and...

For SD, getting six or so shots into a 6" circle at about 30' is where we need to be. Cloverleafing .22's isn't necessary .

^ To me, these two lines of thoughts are contradictory.

Although in-truth, all that anyone really needs to do is to dump "combat effective" shots on-target at shorter distances, as is suggested by Stu's second line, but the flip side of the matter is that when we're on the square-range - or even when we're in a more stressful training setting - we won't be under the same stress as we will, in a real-life encounter. With that in-mind, given that many sources say that we can expect to perform at only 70 to 40% of our square-range capability...who would not want to shoot better? And that is what I read, of Stu's first sentence, above.

Are "advanced" benchmarks really all that *necessary*? Personally, I don't think so - but is that something that I strive to achieve? You bet - because I know that out there in the real world, if faced with that dire scenario, I want to have as many advantages as I can stacked in my corner. Like rradenheimer, I also consider myself the perpetual student: I want to shoot better, because I know that there's always better to strive towards.

Another thing I ran into.... I started using a cane about three years ago. (Sammy's fault.) I find my right wrist is stronger, and I shoot better now.... Nothing much else has changed, except that I'm older ....

I think that technique can be better than brute strength. There are a lot of smaller shooters out there who can shoot better than their larger/stronger counterparts, simply because they have better technique. However, at the same time, there are undeniable advantages that increased strength and stamina confers to any shooters. For shooting, the entire upper body - including, critically, the hands - is crucial, and increases in strength/endurance there will help.

I've also found that my weak hand should have nothing at all to do with the grip on the gun, but rather just be a support item. It's not pulling or pushing, then, nor am I having to "fight" it's effect. Seems to work for me, but YMMV.

There are soooooooo many different ways to do the entire stance/grip thing.

I think what's important for each shooter is to get as much good instruction in this area as they can (to include everything from live lessons to learning by reading/videos), so that they can find what works for their individual body. Differences in unique anatomy/build, previous injuries, handicaps, etc. all will come into play, and what works well for one person may work even better for another, or be completely wrong for yet another.

In just the outlink to the DefensiveCarry.com Forum thread that I provided, you can see what the differences are, between many top shooters. There's a lot of ways to skin the cat, here. Go with what works for you.

I'm not disagreeing with Stu, here, so please don't misunderstand! I'm just using his thoughts as a springboard for my own reply. To-wit: if there was one and only one "correct" grip/stance, then why is it that the competitor using this particular grip isn't winning -ALL- the competitions out there? Why are so many different shooting champions and top-tier trainers all having slight variations on these techniques?

Another thing I ran into: Joe's got a Ruger .22 (can't think of the model - it's the one you really don't want to take apart for cleaning), and it's got a really bad front sight. His age/eyesight are such that he sometimes uses the wrong part of the front sight as the top. Going for a standard picture (I think that gun wants a center hold) can put him 6" high at 30' real easily if he's not paying attention. This, of course, is harmless for paper-punching, but what it boils down to is to buy and practice with guns who's sight picture is nearly identical, or at least very similar. I've got a couple with XS sights on them - the rear sight is a very flat "V". Fortunately, "center the front blade in the opening in the rear sight" works just about as well either way for me (the XS sight is really quick), but that's about as far in the "non-standard" direction that I'd like to go

Agreed 110%.

The shooter needs to be honest about his/her physical needs. If your eyes can't focus on the sights, any attempt to use them will be counterproductive, at best.

SO I shot about 200 rounds, and figured out quite a few things! Other than I still need a lot of work!
First off I tend to shoot with the weaver stance, sometimes modified. What TSiWRX said about body mechanics was spot on for me, everyone is different, but I did notice, that I was able to aim in different locations just by opening up my hips and just let my arms follow. In MA class, and even in corporate life everyone hears, "Do more with less." That is a credence I always try to adhere to. Reducing wasted movement seemed to help me alot.

Not sure if I am allowed to post my target, but I am not going to unless I hear otherwise. I only had one target, and a shoot and see sticker, so I worked with what I had

1.) The lighter my grip in the main-hand, the more stability my offhand needs to give (seems obvious right?). Seems I was milking the grip during trigger pull on some of the shots. Fortunatly I didnt limp wrist any shots. I tended to use my off-hand thumb to cam against the frame to reduce jerking/slapping impact. Still hit a little low/low-left at 15 yards, but combat accurate per-say. I am still not happy with my groupings though, and have a lot to work on.

2.) I tried with a crush grip. Again as TSiWRX stated, I was unable to sustain this as I was getting a little wobbly during followup tactical reload. I almost contribute this to needing to build muscle memory for my stabilizing muscles. I tend to work with a 10lb weight to build up my muscle memory. I did notice though that when I used the crush grip, I was rather accurate for the most part, decent groupings, but I had to get myself to stop breaking my wrist down on the trigger pull.

3.) I tried a few different grip combo's to see how they feel, and I found I shoot most accurate almost right in the middle of #1 and #2...figure that...

I even tried single arm off-hand shots, but failed miserably there

Alot to still work on! Overall a great day at the range!

^ Good for you, for getting out there and trying all these different techniques, and finding the one(s) that work best for you!!!

Don't worry about the single-hand stuff - that'll come with time. One piece of advice I'd been given to get me over my initial bump in the learning-curve, where my support/reaction/weak (left) hand was drastically worse than my dominant/weapon/strong (right) hand, was to simply shoot as much left-handed as much as I shot right-handed only. That really got me to "par," very quickly.

Definitely, the more you can relax your shooting/weapon hand, the more you'll be able to isolate your trigger-finger's movements to itself. It's just the way we're wired and strung-up as humans. I know that, for me, your observation holds true - the more I can designate my support hand to the grip, the more precise/accurate I can shoot.

Now, the problem - at least, for me - is that in thinking about a flight/flight response to critical stress, I'm pretty certain that I'll be going at the grip in a "100/100 crush-grip" manner, so that, to me, will be incompatible with surgical shots, regardless of range. But I figure that if I can stress-inoculate enough, I can train myself to break-out of that initial stress-response, so that my mind/eyes/body will adjust to the demands of a critical surgical shot (or shot at-range) - to relax my dominant hand's master grip, to flag that thumb, to force hard-focus back onto the front sight, etc.

But again, this is what both is working for me, as well as what I hope will work for me. It's just me.

TSiWRX wrote:^ Good for you, for getting out there and trying all these different techniques, and finding the one(s) that work best for you!!!


Now, the problem - at least, for me - is that in thinking about a flight/flight response to critical stress, I'm pretty certain that I'll be going at the grip in a "100/100 crush-grip" manner, so that, to me, will be incompatible with surgical shots, regardless of range. But I figure that if I can stress-inoculate enough, I can train myself to break-out of that initial stress-response, so that my mind/eyes/body will adjust to the demands of a critical surgical shot (or shot at-range) - to relax my dominant hand's master grip, to flag that thumb, to force hard-focus back onto the front sight, etc.

I definetly need to do some work while under stress. I am wanting to take Handgun I-V. Though I have been pounding out the fundamentals as much as possible. In regards to breaking out of fight or flight, breathing control and heart rate control I know are the big factors. What are some of the other issues to be concerned with?