Handgun Training

[747tech]

I am considering going to TDI for handgun I,II,III.
I live near Akron and that is a bit of a haul for me.
Question is:
Is there any training centers in the NE Ohio area that would be equal?

[TSiWRX]

In terms of the shoot-house? No.

In terms of instructional quality otherwise? I don't know, I haven't attended TDI. It's definitely on my list, though!

[TSiWRX]

A follow-up set of questions: what level of instruction are you pursuing? what's your current level of proficiency, and where do you want to be?

[747tech]

Mostly tactical training. I am a basic pistol instructor with a CHL. I have taken a 4 hour so called advanced handgun class at my local range but want more advanced training.

Don't want another mini seminar but something with some meat in it and a fair amount of actual hands on weapons training. Oops I said the "W" word

[mreising]

Mostly tactical training. I am a basic pistol instructor with a CHL. I have taken a 4 hour so called advanced handgun class at my local range but want more advanced training.

Don't want another mini seminar but something with some meat in it and a fair amount of actual hands on weapons training. Oops I said the "W" word

I am a TC/Instructor and have attended TDI and taken Levels 1-5, with a repeat of 1-3 just prior to taking 4&5. I highly recommend the training there, and I recommend starting at the beginning level, even if you have a lot of experience. Starting at the beginning is a good referesher at the least but it also introduces you TDI's instructional process and gets you warmed up. Plus, you will certainly learn something new even at the beginning level, I can almost guarantee it. They are worth the money and even more important, they are worth the time.

[pleasantguywhopacks]

Mostly tactical training. I am a basic pistol instructor with a CHL. I have taken a 4 hour so called advanced handgun class at my local range but want more advanced training.

Don't want another mini seminar but something with some meat in it and a fair amount of actual hands on weapons training. Oops I said the "W" word

TDI is going to show you their method for just about everything and give you reasons why they feel it works best. They will say up front take what you want from it. They do have some unique methods for clearing a structure, they differ from other standard techniques. I'll add that the reasons behind their methods do have traction and work. Day 3 is where all the really good stuff happens on HG 1-3. Rolling basics of days 1 and 2 into the more advanced concepts.

I went there with little skills more than I could shoot well. I have lots of skills now after HG 1-3 and Advanced CC. I'm in for the next Active Shooter class in June and likely to get my HG 4 and 5 in this fall if I keep on the work I'm on now to pay for it all.

[TSiWRX]

"W."

I have been to three local schools, so far. Each of these utilize the popular one-day (7-8 hours) seminar format. Here they are, in no particular order at all:

Ron Lauinger's Lauinger Marksmanship, Inc. (LMI) - Very unfortunately now-defunct. Ron decided to close down the firearms side of the house, at least temporarily, so he can focus more on his main interest: knife and unarmed combatives. He used to offer both handgun and carbine (as well as shotgun, back in his NY days, but once he moved out to Ohio, he reported that virtually all interest in shotguns disappeared), and I was lucky enough to have taken a couple of his handgun courses. He favors Clint Smith's teachings, and his school was a true "run your gun" school, not only in terms of round-count, but truly in terms of what he advertised: learn how to fight with your pistol - for the final hours of each class, he has both a live-fire shoot-house (a temporary setup, single-tier, constructed out of tarp) as well as force-on-force, using airsoft/RAM-trainers. Another thing that impressed me about Ron is that he trains regardless of the weather; as long as conditions are not physically unsafe, we keep going: my low-light class featured torrential rain, and I now have the confidence to fight under such conditions, because I *know* I can do it. A lack of student interest is the reason he closed down this section of his "integrated combatives" business - too many student cancellations (not many people will train in bad weather), combined with increasing range and insurance costs, made this untenable. It's really too bad, because I learned a tremendous amount from him. I was completely FNG when I took his "Fighting Pistols 1" course, and although I learned just an incredible amount from my time there, I feel that I would have been able to take away even more had I taken perhaps one of the other schools' (below) "first-step" courses, first. In-retrospect, I think that his first-step class was perhaps the most intense of the three, but also strangely the best-rounded: coming out of there, the novice shooter is incredibly prepared for the bad stuff.

The Campbell family runs Commence FireARMS Academy (http://www.commencefire.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). They offer what I think is the best introduction to defensive/combat pistolcraft for absolute beginners. If I had to do this all over again, they're where I'd start, as they have a true progression, worked out as a smooth-operating well-lubed machine. Going from their CHL to "Basic Marksmanship (handgun)" to their "Shoot With the Instructors" sessions (think of these as semi-private tutoring sessions), this progression will get the new shooter comfortable and safe - and proficient at marksmanship - before stepping into the more intense atmosphere of a "run your gun" class. They also have a mandatory "Holster Techniques" pre-requisite - a 2-hour dry-fire mini-seminar ($20) - to insure that everyone who wants to attend their "Advanced" classes are sufficiently safe and proficient at clearing their pistol from its holster. I think that this shows just how much they value safety, as well as demonstrates their "do it right, from the beginning" mindset. Their "Advanced" classes are the "run your gun" type. Their first-tier class, "Advanced Handgun 1," introduces all of the principles of defensive handgun employment, and reinforces the need for speed with accuracy. CFA boasts the best instructor-to-student ratio I've experienced - it approaches 1:1 - as well as the most impressive physical setup: numerous barricades and steel targets make for an exceptional learning atmosphere. This year, I plan to re-take, yet again, their AH1 offering, while also pursuing at least one repetition of their second-tier AH2 (said to involve a lot of ground-work and positions, and also moving targets!). Their "Advanced Shoot with the Instructors" mini-seminars, shot from-concealment, are held at Gray's Armory downtown, and should keep you polished-up for what's to come in the spring and summer. As I routinely voice, I still believe that the $40 I spent on my first repetition of their ASWI course (come a week from now, I'll have done three repetitions of this course) was among the best money I'd spent shooting all of last year: I walked out of there with a 50% decrease in the size of my shot groupings at 7 yards - and that's coming out of concealment.

Last but not least, Bill Holcomb heads-up Three Tango Firearms Academy. CHL and handguns are, as with CFA, Bill's bread-and-butter. I did one rep. of Bill's "Defensive Handgun 1" course last year, which progressed very quickly from static positions to movement and retention, as well as barricades and positions. Additionally, Bill focused heavily on malfunction clearance in this, his intro-level, class - he encouraged us to use empty brass to induce malfunctions in our pistols (on the drive home, I discovered that I had a bruise on the heel of my support hand that was a perfect imprint of my magazine base-pad), and taught us both the diagnostic as well as non-diagnostic methods of malfunction remediation. Yet another stand-out of his class was the introduction of distractions, to add to the stress inoculation. Even during lunch-breaks, Bill made himself available to private-tutor anyone who wanted extra - it was during this session that I learned that I was weak coming off the reload. His second-tier class, "Defensive Handgun 2," was much more intense in terms of the "work" involved, and was heavily based on the balance-of-speed-vs-accuracy template. Bill promised that we would all step out of class that day with a draw-to-first-hit time of under 1.5 seconds, drawing from concealment and putting that first shot within the 8-inch green-zone on a Magpul BSA template, from 3 yards - and he delivered in spades, adding in close-range point-shooting, multiple-threat engagements, as well as drilling in the idea that we must move to live. Needless to say, I'm looking to repeat his classes, too.

In the area, Chris Cerino, former Top Shot runner-up, also runs civilian classes. I'm looking to add his teachings to my tool-chest this year. The 1911Addicts.com guys are trying to get Bob Vogel here for a session this spring. Also, Chris Costa, now of his standalone Costa Ludus, has two three-day sessions scheduled for NE-Ohio this summer: I'm currently signed up for the first one, and being honest, I probably will wind up doing both.

The Greenport Tactical Association, from their private range just south of Canton, plays host to a number of regional instructors every year. Also, Dan Clevenger runs classes in our area, too, out of his D&D Firearms Instructors school. The Suarez contingent also runs classes in our area, and this year, I hope to do both their "Point Shooting Progressions" as well as their "Close Quarters Pistol" courses.

For me, the TDI "problem" is also one of time and distance - one or the other, I can work around, but both = . A couple of my friends are shocked that I am going to Costa's course(s) this summer, but for me, the cost is comparable, and I don't have the issue of distance.

Have no doubt, TDI is on my very short list, but it's looking like it's going to take a year or two before I make it down there.

[747tech]

WOW! Thanks for all the good info. It seems like most training is geared toward folks getting their CHL but with some digging I hope to find what I need.

[TSiWRX]

^ It is CHL-"based," but I believe that's because so many people are seeking their CHLs, and also because that's where they can draw a lot of their customers from.

Similarly, I believe also that the skills taught are critical for any CHL-holder, and, for that matter, for anyone who would seek to employ the handgun as a method of self-defense.

In-truth, though, aside from the specific techniques taught to clear cover clothing (the local schools make it clear that you shouldn't come to their concealed classes sporting your favorite "5.11 Concealment Vest" or other such clothing, instead, they want you dressed as you would everyday) - and the repetitions to burn-in the necessary muscle-memory to get this job done quickly, efficiently, and safely - everything else is just more of the same.

That, namely, are two things:
- basic pistol marksmanship skills
- weapons-manipulation

If you looked at any kind of "curriculum description" of any of the schools out there, TDI's meshes well with that of anything from Magpul to Gunsite to Suarez to that of the three locals I attended. If you've watched the Magpul "Art of the Dynamic Handgun" DVD set, that's basically it, no matter where you go. A three-day class simply allows both the instructor as well as the student the luxury of time to focus on the skills taught, whereas the local school's single-day seminars is more akin to "drinking from a fire-hose."

In having talked candidly with some of these instructors and also fellow shooters who are more advanced than myself, I really think that the big advantage to TDI is their on-site shoot-house, and that you get to start in it so early on in their curriculum. However, that in and of itself, as well as their more specific-concern/scenario driven courses such as "Advanced Concealed Carry" and "Active Killer/Shooter" (both of which I would love to attend) bridges solidly into the "tactics" side of the house, and I do not think that can be equated with any of the more weapons-manipulation driven, foundational, courses.

In all honesty, if you're seeking instruction equal to TDI's "Handgun I-V," in terms of weapons-manipulation and handgun marksmanship skills, I think that by piecing together the various local offerings (for example, while Commence Fire has not offered low-light or force-on-force, yet, LMI did, and so does Three Tango), you'll definitely be able to get the instruction that you want/need, and furthermore, the exposure to different schools will also give you insight into the different skills preferred by the different instructors, which you can then adapt to your own repertoire, using what best/better fits your specific needs.

Add in the mix of famous names who brings with them instruction that you know will be quality (and that's sought by all)...it's hard to say that there's nothing good to be had in NE-Ohio.

But the facilities? TDI stands, for certain, as among the best - and I think that the ability to use such facilities for learning tactics is perhaps the ideal way to go. I know that I'm certainly looking forward to the day that I can get myself there!

[mreising]

Don't forget that the Fun-n-gun is an opportunity to experience a very good sample of TDI. That and you get to support OFCC.

Fun-n-gun. There is also a description on the OFCC main web page.

[Jake]

Oops I said the "W" word

My NRA Basic Pistol Instructor made a huuuuuge deal regarding this.
Even had a fine jar for every time it was uttered.

Based on all the shooting shows on television and the interweb (Shooting USA, Self Defense TV, etc...) that use "that" word regularly,
I'm assuming that they either don't care or agree with the NRA's philosophy.

Not that the NRA is the final word on matters, but I think they have a valid point on the use of "that" word from a PC stand point.

[mreising]

You will find that those who use the term "weapon" often have a military or law enforcement background where that is the common terminology. Really, there is nothing wrong with the word, but the NRA prefers to avoid it because of perceived negative conotations. I joke with instructor candidates about having a fine jar but don't enforce it.

[Brian D.]

I'm kinda like mreising on this. During the years I did range officer, match director, and pistol section leader duties I strived to stay away from the "W" word too. But I couldn't always get the other workers or shooters to go along with me on it.

[TSiWRX]

From my paintball time in the early 90s, I still say "marker!"

[XDm45]

A friend of mine told me about this one, but that's all i can tell ya

http://www.pmsecurityservicestwtg.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;