duty to retreat (the almost Darwin awards)

[dan_sayers]

Most of you have come to know that I am a civil disobedient on some matters. We've also seen me in situations where there was room for improvement. This time (this is very minor), I think I played perfectly. However, it was still a little disconcerting after the fact.

Had a delivery to this multiplex type arrangement. One on one side of a drive and one on the other. The drive leading back to parking in the back. Just off the street however, the drive is severely widened to accept 2 parked cars on either side. I pulled into one going there. While there, another car pulled into the same spot, on the other side. So there's a good 6-8 feet between vehicles. Female was the driver with a fairly large man as the passenger. By time I got back to my car, she was out and on the passenger side (side towards me). I've said many times that I kind of like plain sight in terms of broadcasting to strange areas that I'm not to be robbed. However, I generally do NOT like having to tuck in front of others. They don't know the laws and might feel I'm brandishing to intimidate them. Nevertheless, I have a law to adhere to, so I begin my double tuck, using the pizza bag for cover as much as possible.

"I'ma rob you for the pizza." I'm 95% sure it was meant to be a joke. Not unlike calling up a school with some concocted bomb threat as a joke. I couldn't believe my ears. No way could somebody be that stupid. Worse, I was a deer in headlights. I STILL (meaning after the fact) can't think of a single thing I could do or say in that situation. Who gave her the right to throw me into a situation where I'm damned either way?

What did I do? I left. And I didn't just leave, I floored it in reverse and once in the street, I floored it in drive. I don't even know why, I just did. I guess it was my way of venting. I was relatively upset that this person thought that was something to joke about or otherwise put me in a situation where anything I could say or do is wrong. I couldn't do anything to draw attention to the guns I had just exposed that she clearly missed to have the guts to make such a joke. I couldn't say "what if I had a gun" or otherwise give her a brief taste of taking it seriously and responding accordingly. Etc.

Yet in "the heat of the moment" my instinct was to get out of there. I thought I'd share because I think we're all glad to see that coming from me. Not exactly a condition orange or red, but it was impromptu, so it's not like I'm talking about what I would do, etc.

[NavyChief]

Dan -
Ya' done just about perfect. As you know, in FL we don't have to retreat. But that's not the point. If I can, I likely will. Just too much bother with a shooting. Did you call in any pertinent info to LE? That might be the only thing I could think of to add. Oh, and don't be so sure it was some sort of bad joke.

[dan_sayers]

Thanks, Chief. For whatever reason, clearing my head of it all and returning to the subject made bells go off. I think I finally came up with something I could've said that would've both kept her/them at bay and made sure I didn't incriminate myself in the process. I should've said "Shall I assume you didn't see me just expose my guns so I could comply with the plain sight provision of Ohio's Concealed Carry law?" Too formal? Too direct? Better to just skate and leave her feeling like she was cool for clowning on the pizza guy? The idea of course being that if it wasn't just a joke, this assertive, eye to eye notification would be far better at diffusing the situation than a snide evacuation, no? I guess you could say I still have residual "I'm a bad guy for carrying" in me from all the CPZ's and legislature and such. As a result, I'm not very good with such things. Which is why I've always shared these in hopes of improving.

[petez]

Personally I would have exposed my weapon again,not drawing and asked excuse me? Would she have called the law, I doubt it.And if she did what would she say? I jokingly said I was going to rob him and he exposed a weapon?And your reply would be Thats what I thought she said and I was getting to ready retreat and had to reexpose my weapon by law to drive away.Who was in the wrong? you by following the law or her by stating she was going to rob you?If you were the officer what would be your take on the whole situation? But I'm pretty sure she would never do that again.

[jburtonpdx]

Yet in "the heat of the moment" my instinct was to get out of there.

good choice

I understand the desire to impart on her the seriousness of the situation, but you were not in a position to do that at the time. Hopefully somebody later will and not in to damaging of a fashion...

now for some reason I am craving pepperoni...

[rickt]

However, I generally do NOT like having to tuck in front of others. They don't know the laws and might feel I'm brandishing to intimidate them. Nevertheless, I have a law to adhere to, so I begin my double tuck, using the pizza bag for cover as much as possible.

Why not do the tuck/untuck inside your vehicle? That's what I do.

[DaveT]

Maybe try to cut the tension with humor. Something like:
"The pizza's not THAT good. Trust me, I helped make it."

[dan_sayers]

However, I generally do NOT like having to tuck in front of others. They don't know the laws and might feel I'm brandishing to intimidate them. Nevertheless, I have a law to adhere to, so I begin my double tuck, using the pizza bag for cover as much as possible.

Why not do the tuck/untuck inside your vehicle? That's what I do.

In terms of untucking, I don't mind broadcasting to a strange area that I'm not to be robbed. In terms of both, it's a LOT easier to do while walking anyways, both because I'm already standing up, so my shirt is easier to manipulate as well as the fact that once I'm in the car, I have other things I could be doing like buckling up, shifting into gear, etc. Time is money in this game

[Bersa45]

Every situation is different and calls for split second thinking. I'm sure if you felt threatened you would've reacted differently. That would have got my heart pumping a little faster, but you knew already that they were there, so it didn't hit you by surprise. Restraint when needed and action when required.

[airdog714]

Dan, Good move and bad move at the same time. You floored it in reverse, than agian to go forward to get out of there.

What if you had hit someone that stepped into your path. how would you explain that? What if it where a child?

The law says we have a duty to retreat, but at what cost?

Maybe you should have PLIAN SIGHTED your guns and left with your head held high.

Easy to second guess after the fact, I know, so please don't take this as a flame.

airdog

[Brian D.]

Oftentimes lowbrow folks have a sense of humor that is as poorly developed as the rest of their mental faculties, so maybe it was just a very dumb--and dangerous--attempt at a joke. Seems to me (now, from a distance) that if their intent was to rob/attack you, they would have blocked in your vehicle with theirs, physically prevented access to your car's door, hid and jumped you by surprise, etc.

But you were there I wasn't. Too hard to judge this without being in your shoes at the moment.

[haspelbein]

I think leaving the scene was exactly the right thing to do. It may or may not have been a joke. But you had nothing to gain by finding out if it was or not.

[dan_sayers]

Restraint when needed and action when required.

I like that; concise. Part of the reason my first condition red left me all shook up is because I felt I let myself down. Second time, it was easier to get over because I saw I did what I had to when I had to. I'll have to try and remember that saying. Yours?

@airdog: No flame taken. I did want to point out however that I had plain sighted BEFORE she said that. Hence my feeling that her actions were the epitome of stupidity. And although I didn't mention it, my pathway was clear. I didn't speed off as if to flee, but rather for dramatic effect in an attempt to make her think she genuinely hurt my feelings. Which she kind of did, but only because I'm not a big fan of damned if you do damned if you don't. I guess that's the bitter aftertaste of humble pie, eh? But yeah, that road is pretty dead anyways, and I did make sure my path was clear. It was a fine point just the same.

[Morne]

Dan, you did perfect. I hope that in a comparable situation I can do the same.

Even if we had Castle Doctrine, that doesn't erase the following laws of civilized humanity:

The second worse thing you can do is kill someone.
The absolute worst thing you can do is not prevent someone you love (self included) from being seriously harmed/killed.

By not continuing with a fruitless (and possibly dangerous) confrontation you avoided any escalation that might have led to someone's death. Even inflicting violence upon someone who DESPERATELY deserves it will leave a mental scar upon you, have no doubt. It is not our place to teach anybody a lesson, we are armed solely for our protection and the protection of those to whom we are responsible. While CCW has ancillary benefits to the society at large it is neither imperative nor wise for us to go around forcing "smarts" into the minds of "dumb" people.

Imagine how it could have gone otherwise and be proud of yourself.

[OhioPaints]

<<<Why not do the tuck/untuck inside your vehicle? That's what I do.>>>

Technically, aren't you illegal if you are inside the vehicle without the firearm being "in plain sight"? Or do I misunderstand?

As far as Dan's actions, I think he did everything right considering the real world. Perhaps more ideal would have been to report the license plate to 911 and to go slower when leaving so as to minimize any other dangers, but in the real world, Dan did fine.

As for it maybe being a joke, like the warn you at the airports, jokes like that are taken seriously.

It probably was funny to her, or even considered a compliment, but thinking people consider beyond their own narrow viewpoint.

Ken