Another Reloading Question--223 dies

[66 deuce coupe]

Just received my RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme Kit, got it ftom local dealer $275.00 plus tax.Better than E-Bay prices.

Anyhoot, I see RCBS lists 4 different die sets for 223;

11101--FL set

11102--Neck set

11103--Small base set

37201--Competition mic set.

I read that the 11103 set is recommended for semi-auto.
Since i am loading for my AR only, is the small base set, 11103, the way to go, or would it be better to just go ahead and get the more expensive comp mic set?

My AR is chambered 556mm, is one set better than the other to reload both 223 and 556?

Also, is there anything else you would recommend to get started, besides calipers and micrometers, I already have these.
I've been told a case trimmer will be needed immediately to do the 223, 556 caliber, but also told a trimmer is not needed till case has been reloaded a half dozen times or more.Which is correct?

BTW, did a search this AM, could not find where this was asked before.
If a repost, I apologize in advance.

Thanks in advance
JESSE

[rexles]

I use full length set and shoot semi auto as well. Comp. dies are worth the dough if you are wanting extra accuraccy. If you are just plinking you will be ok with F/L. If you are planning on shooting military surplus brass, you will need some way to ream the primer pockets. Mil brass is crimped.
I have a Lyman Case trimmer and it can also be used for a primer pocket reamer with a few assys.

[deanimator]

I've been told a case trimmer will be needed immediately to do the 223, 556 caliber, but also told a trimmer is not needed till case has been reloaded a half dozen times or more.Which is correct?

That's not only bad advice, it's DANGEROUSLY bad advice.

Every time you full length size a bottleneck rifle case, it grows a little in length. Eventually, it will grow to be oversize in length, crimping into the bullet like an ingrown toenail, and causing dangerous pressures. How long it takes for this to happen depends entirely on how long the cases were to begin with, as well as the qualities of the brass you're using, the dies themselves, etc., etc. It might happen in three loadings. It might happen in one.

Save your gun and your face. Check (and if necessary trim) your cases EVERY time. I've found that the easiest way to do this is to run ALL of them through the trimmer, EVERY time. If they're under the maximum length set in the trimmer, they simply don't cut and you'll know in a second. If they DO cut, they're over the maximum length you set and needed to be trimmed.

[deanimator]

I use full length set and shoot semi auto as well. Comp. dies are worth the dough if you are wanting extra accuraccy. If you are just plinking you will be ok with F/L. If you are planning on shooting military surplus brass, you will need some way to ream the primer pockets. Mil brass is crimped.
I have a Lyman Case trimmer and it can also be used for a primer pocket reamer with a few assys.

If you've got a LOT of cases with crimped primer pockets, the Dillon primer pocket swager is well worth the cost.

[willbird]

I would not buy RCBS dies, I would buy Redding dies

http://www.redding-reloading.com/pages/ ... izdie.html

I would go with the Type S small base die for a semi-auto application, I would use the redding competition seater, and it IS worth getting the TIN plated bushings for the bushing full length die.

On trimming cases, if people would ever measure their chamber they would see that a typical sammi chamber often gives .03" extra for a longer case than the "trim to" length., then they would realize that a case that is .005" over the trim too length will cause no harm.

Bill

[deanimator]

I would not buy RCBS dies, I would buy Redding dies

http://www.redding-reloading.com/pages/ ... izdie.html

I would go with the Type S small base die for a semi-auto application, I would use the redding competition seater, and it IS worth getting the TIN plated bushings for the bushing full length die.

On trimming cases, if people would ever measure their chamber they would see that a typical sammi chamber often gives .03" extra for a longer case than the "trim to" length., then they would realize that a case that is .005" over the trim too length will cause no harm.

Bill

I'd wager that very few people measure their chambers or even know how. The only time I've ever even had somebody else do it was to address the short throat problem with my 112BVSS.

That means that people who don't measure and trim frequently are playing Russian roulette. If you guess wrong, the BEST that can happen is blown primers.

[willbird]

Actually quite a few of the more advanced varmint hunter/reloader types DO measure their chamber length, and several have found that waiting until the brass actually NEEDS trimmed actually seems to limit how much they do stretch.

All that is needed is a simple gauge made from a fired case. A short throat would be a gift from GOD on a factory rifle, as typically many of them the bullet would only be in the neck .05" by the time you touched rifling with it.

measuring and trimming is fine...............but knowing how long the chamber actually is is a real benefit to the process, some saami chambers like 30-30 are .08" or more longer than the brass we buy for them.

One example, trim to length for 223 is 1.750, a standard Clymer reamer cuts a chamber 1.772 overall length. that allows the case to grow .022" before it would be a hazard. so cases 1.755 are sure no hazard.

http://www.ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf

Bill

[ScottyPotty]

My AR is chambered 556mm, is one set better than the other to reload both 223 and 556?

A .223 will work in .223 and 5.56 chambers - It is dangerous to use 5.56 round in .223 chambers.

You Reload for the 223 it will work on the 5.56 - if you want a little hotter round slowly work up your load to the 5.56 level.

[Buckshot]

66 Deuce Coupe,

I have loaded for 3 different M1 Garands, two different M1 Carbines, an M14s, an M1a, two AR-15s, an two different AR-180s and two different Mini-14s over the years.

I have never needed a Small base die for any of them. I have a small based die but it was purchased for a T/C Contender, the ONLY firearm I have ever seen that needed a SB die.

I think they work the brass too much and cause premature case failure.

Definitely bad info on the trimmer.

Look for an X-die, it is specially set up to limit case stretching from sizing in the neck.

Buckshot

[willbird]

One note on the trimming.

Going to a bushing die like the redding will cut the need to trim dramatically. I checked 2-3 mfg. of 223 dies...each of them sized the neck down .008" -.010" and back up .006" to .008"

Using a bushing die you can pick a bushing that sizes it down .003 to .004 then opens it back up .001 to .002...this makes expanding easier, and cuts stretching with mild loads to almost nil.

I do not mean to say that I do not trim, but it is well worth knowing what your goals and limits are, rather than blindly trimming the cases .03" under chamber length every time and thinking that if one gets .005" over trim to length it will blow your rifle up.

Bill

[66 deuce coupe]

OK, a couple more questions.

Bill, could you elaborate on measuring the chamber using a spent casing?
I like the idea of knowing exact tolerances, not sure how to do it.

Also, would you mind recommending the Redding bushing set part #.I see they show 5 different ones, which one is best?
And, does the bushing set you refer to do the job that the x-die Buckshot refersd to?

I don,t mind putting out a few extra bucks for the better equip.
Needless to say, I'm not going to be loading comp loads till I get the hang of this, but eventually I will.

Thank you all for your help.
Please bear with me as I know I'll have more questions.
But as my Pap used to tell, when I was knee high to a grasshopper, there is no such thing as a dumb question, just dumb people who don,t ask.

JESSE

PS
I sure hope the powers that be eventually get time to start a reloading forum.Excellent idea.

[willbird]

But as my Pap used to tell, when I was knee high to a grasshopper, there is no such thing as a dumb question, just dumb people who don,t ask

I agree 110%............if you dig around on the net you can find a wealth of information......www.benchrest.com has some really neat forums. Also Varmint Al has a HUGE amount of info.

http://www.varmintal.com/



The gauge to measure the chamber is made from a fired case. The neck of the case gets cut .100" shorter, then a button is turned from a suitable metal, the button is a snug fit in the case mouth...it is pulled out longer than the chamber, then the gun is gently closed on it....when it is removed it can be measured to determine the chamber length.

Here is what it looks like

http://tinyurl.com/create.php

On the redding bushings..

I hope you have a 0-1 micrometer ...if you do, take a loaded cartridge and measure it's neck dia in .001" I then would suggest subtracting .003-.004 from that measured dia.

http://www.redding-reloading.com/techli ... ection.htm

redding says .001 but their smoking crack with that idea

For the most part brass cartridge cases spring back .002"...if you measure an expander ball in a 223 die it will usually be .223 or maybe .224...the ball opens the neck up to it's size, and the neck springs back .002....this gives you .002 press fit to the bullet. In an AR you do NOT want insufficient neck tension as the bullets can and will push back in the cases.

SO if your loaded round measured .250 on the neck(example only...you need real dimensions)..we would subtract .004 and end up with a .246 bushing.....so the bushing in use would size the necks down .004 and then the expander would open them back up to .248...we only want to size them down enough that the expander ball works on all the necks...even the thinnest one.

If my neck of a loaded ctg. measured .250 I would probably order .245, .246, and .247 bushings...this would allow me to tune a but if I wanted to.

http://www.lockstock.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RED76

I have always gotten mine from Lock Stock and barrel...and the little box to put the bushings in is really nice to have

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.e ... t=11082005

I would get the competition shell holder set too, what this does is allow you to pick a shellholder that just bumps your shoulder back .002" the exact shell holder that does that will vary from one brand of brass to another....and it will change if you anneal the case necks.

The X die is a different concept than the bushing dies.

Whether or not you need small base dies is another question, some people say they never use them and do just fine.

The bushing dies and the concept of only pushing the shoulder back .002" to .003" both should reduce how much the brass stretches....if it keeps stretching, and you keep trimming......that brass has to come from somewhere....it comes from back near the head of the case

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloa ... nspect.cfm

When we started loading for the M14 back in the late 70's we got a set of rcbs 308 dies, and the dies as they came using a rcbs shellholder with the shell holder bumping the die would cause incipient case head separations on the third reload...and the cases stretched like mad, properly adjusting the dies so they only bumped the shoulder a tiny amount would allow reloading the cases 8 times or more without a lot of case stretching and no case head seperations.

Bill

[Dr. Winston]

An electronic grain scale! After all reloading sessions, I weigh each round. If ones weight is way off, either way, that means you've either got a double shot of powder or not enough.

[ScottyPotty]

An electronic grain scale! After all reloading sessions, I weigh each round. If ones weight is way off, either way, that means you've either got a double shot of powder or not enough.

A double charge on a .223 will overflow the case....dont ask me how i know

[willbird]

I have a long time ago loaded 308's with no powder...the bullet does not even leave the case with normal neck tension. I was 14 then, I'm a lot more careful now . Cases with no powder go neck down, when they get charged they go neck up, and unless there is a darn good reason I select powders that a double charge will not fit.

The Lee reloading manual is really nice because it shows the % of the case volume that a powder charge takes up.

Bill