almost had to pull :-(

Post by **TunnelRat** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:56 am

nj3416 wrote:You have to remember that you are talking about possibly using deadly force over a two liter of soda! Step back for a moment and think how ridiculous that sounds.

I agree wholeheartedly: it does sound ridiculous.
This is Ohio, not New York. We drink pop here, not soda...

dan_sayers · Post by **dan_sayers** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 11:37 am

Mark wrote:Not to mention whining to a policeman over the injustice of getting the wrong two litter. Myself, I try to keep my dealings with LEO's to more important events.

Oh I know. When he asked me what happened, I was half tempted to say to him that it wasn't worth his time. In fact, at one point, I DO remember saying "which I'm sure a police officer has better things to attend to on a friday night".

Rob-Black99RT · Post by **Rob-Black99RT** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:06 pm

Scruit wrote: 1) Means: Did he appear to have the means to use deadly force? No weapon? hmmm

I keep thinking about the big guy who beat the heck out of the patron because he wouldn't let the thug's g/f cut in line (or whatever it was)... come on, you guys remember the video of the white guy getting beat up by the black guy 6 months or so ago at the pizza joint or subway while everybody just stood there and watched like a bunch of cowards... He suffered great bodily harm from the beating he received from nothing but fists and feet, so the bad guy not having a firearm, knife, bat, or even a ball-point pen in his hand is somewhat irrelavant IMO. If somebody wants to kill you or harm you greatly, they don't need anything in their hands to do it.

The only thing I'd suggest for future encounters is to make darn sure you've got at least 15-20 feet between you and the bad guy. 4 feet distance could have gotten you killed if he'd decided to make good on his threat... If a thug comes toward you, tell him to stop and continue to back up while glancing behind you to ensure you don't trip over anything. If he continues to follow and doesn't stop, to me that confirms he's got the intent of causing bodily harm or death and I'd deploy OC or my pistol, depending on what he's got. No weapon? He'll get sprayed first. Anything in his hands or if I see him reaching for something, the pistol will get pulled. If he continues to advance and doesn't obey my commands for him to immediately get on the ground face down with his hands out-stretched, he'll catch a pair in the chest and a pair in the face. My goal is to live through the situation, and I'd rather be judged by 12 and clearly describe the terror I was going through from this thug than guess wrong and leave my wife a widow and kids without a father. I refuse to put my life in the hands of someone who has clearly shown through their actions my life and well-being mean nothing to them.

One other thing... if you're confronted with this situation again I'd dial 911 and put it on speakerphone ASAP so they can hear you and you can hear them while the situation is happening. That will ensure your words are recorded, the sound of your voice (showing the fear), and it might even catch threats from the thug. A prosecutor would have a really hard time proving anything but self-defense when they've got "I'm going to mess you up" or "I'm going to beat your head in" on tape from the bad guy's mouth...

Glad you made it home alive. Be safe...

Knip007 · Post by **Knip007** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:12 pm

Dan, that thug could have sent out his preteen daughters. Still laughing, and laughing, and laughing. and flagellated. Now I need to change my pants.

P.s. Still laughing

mrpatatohead · Post by **mrpatatohead** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:07 pm

I'm also a manager and so I would like to diffuse the situation in the company's best interest as well

So a man ordered a pizza and pop to be delievered you guys screwed the order up he had to wait for you to return so he could eat his pizza with his soda. You should have offered him the second two liter for free without him asking. Whaen he did ask you should have given him the two liter and left. After that you could have called the cops to get your two liter back.

As one who owned a pizza place I would never expect anyone to try to save a lousy two liter or even the entire order in the face of an irite customer. What I would do was to keep a data base of troublesome customers and cut their deliveries off.

I also ran deliveries when nessesary so I know how some people are about their orders. One thing I used to do was carry plates, napkins, little packs of cheese, Hot pepper seeds and a cooler filled with two liters. (You would be suprised how many people once I got to their house said ' I wish I had thought to order a twp litter of X'' or said they ''thought they had ordered a two litter of X'' sold many two litters that way.)

LSC · Post by **LSC** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:11 pm

dan_sayers · Post by **dan_sayers** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:27 am

@Potato: I've already addressed that. I would like to point out however that there are circumstances involved. I know a guy in Wisconsin that delivers in one of the uppity-uppest places one could imagine. To him, carrying on the job would be added weight. Where I deliver is a different story. I'm not bad mouthing the area as a LOT of them are some really down people. Nevertheless, we do have a sect out there that believes that if they kick and scream, they'll dine free for a year and try to pull it off. They think that because we're a business, we HAVE to endure it or that because the title is manager, I HAVE to put up with whatever. They are often shocked to find out I could care less. I am fortunate enough to have a boss that has learned (based on circumstances) that this is the correct way to handle them.

I've had people thanking me to no end on the phone, tipping me double on the spot--but only after making sure I'm the one they talked to--etc. I've even had other drivers thank me for "buttering them up" on the phone because THEY received a better tip thanks to the lovely experience they had placing the order. I'm a humanist and therefore will go out of my way to make sure everybody's happy (some define that as a gentleman). The INSTANT somebody doesn't come correct, they're met with whatever they're dishing. A few were bluffing and after realizing it wasn't going to work, will turn into the nicest folk you can imagine and I follow suit. Even had one guy go from threatening to come up to the store to kick my butt, to making sure I added a sizeable tip on his credit card when I got around to running it. Some people actually RESPECT those that are willing to assert themselves.

Petrovich · Post by **Petrovich** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:47 am

I just noticed this thread..I don't know how I missed it in the first place.

I think I have to jump in with the 'heckwithit give 'em the pop' crowd.

While I think your handling of the situation was satisfactory, the fact it happened at all is a bit ludicrous.

I thought it was POLICY to replace botched orders free. I realize there are those would take advantage of a policy like that, but after two or three times I'm sure they become known as abusers. It's the cost of doing business in the pizza wars.

Dan, this is the second scenario I have read where you have posted a set of circumstances in which I honestly question your approach and, most importantly, your mindset. You seem to be testing the waters, and I think it's a BAD idea.

If you keep playing with matches yer gonna get burnt. There is little doubt in my mind if you'd shot that guy you would be in a legal fight for your freedom.

dan_sayers · Post by **dan_sayers** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:21 am

Petrofergov wrote:Dan, this is the second scenario I have read where you have posted a set of circumstances in which I honestly question your approach and, most importantly, your mindset. You seem to be testing the waters, and I think it's a BAD idea.

Pardon me, sir, but this was the first time I believed I had a green light to shoot and I didn't even reach for my gun. Secondly, I AM new to carrying. Ever since I was six, I understood that new meant there was a novelty to it and I would expect others to grasp this as well. Maybe you'd prefer the run skeered flavor, but even BEFORE I carried, I had the attitude that I'm nobody's victim. There's a difference between looking for a fight and looking to carry out your daily duties without having to worry about joe punk interfering with that for his own underhanded amusement.

For the record, this was the first occassion, the two are entirely uncomparable, and this one most definitely took its toll on me. One of the wisest things my father ever said to me was "learn from your near misses". He was talking about automobile accidents, but I happen to think that that would be well-applied to most anything. It's not unlike experiencing something without having to go through it. Well believe me, it DID weight on my conscience. Mostly because I had to choose in that moment and I did NOT want to have to choose. I'd rather go about my day. So if your concern is genuine, take heart. I did.

Petrovich · Post by **Petrovich** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:32 am

dan_sayers wrote:Pardon me, sir, but this was the first time I believed I had a green light to shoot and I didn't even reach for my gun..

This is exactly what I am referring to. No such green light existed except in your mind.

Methinks yer gonna be the next one to make headlines for assault..or worse (heaven forbid).

Your approach to CC is scary dude....I'm serious. No, I ain't picking on you. I think you need to take your gun off for awhile and go back to seeing what it feels like to be UNARMED just to refresh your memory.

Your thoughts and behavior should be no different in the way you perceive/approach people than what they were before you armed yourself. Putting on a gun should not change the way you interact. If it does, you need to give some serious thought to where you might be headed.

Statements such as "I had a green light to shoot" and "reach for my gun" as well as other statements I am not going to take the time to cut and paste give me cause for concern. Telling others....and implying to others...even total strangers; that you are armed suggests you are letting this thing go to your head.

I know I sound harsh...and I hate to be that way; but I hate to think of you getting into trouble so soon after your life has taken a turn for the better.

dan_sayers · Post by **dan_sayers** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:25 am

Petrofergov wrote:Your thoughts and behavior should be no different in the way you perceive/approach people than what they were before you armed yourself.

They're not. Not that you would know. Oh wait, I am much calmer. Does that count?

All my life I've been met with people taking advantage of me, making sure I "stay in my place", push me around, etc. I let them too. Now that I've gotten past that, somebody who does exactly that is worried about my mental state? It's been my experience that the more somebody clings to the illusion of "normal", the more they have the skeletons to keep stashed away about who they are and how they think. Well I'm not afraid, Mr. Emler and no amount of your abuse will change that. I've got confidence and I'm not afraid to say what's on my mind, even if I have the minority opinion. That frightens you? An independent thinker? Okay. But don't think for a moment you're going to run me off with your constant badgering. That's what I've learned. That I am strong. That I'm alright. That I AM entitled to know what "life" feels like. So I live it. When that punk in the apartment building tried to take that from me, I didn't let him. When the guy followed me and cornered me to scare me, I didn't let him. You attack me and try to make me feel out of place, I won't let you.

See, the thought crossed my mind to make for my gun because I had no idea where/if he was going to stop. Just that he made himself clear and I was his target. I felt bad for thinking about having to reach for a gun to settle a matter between two humans. Do you get that yet? I had nightmares that night. I "clung" to my family, desperately seeking a feeling of normal. During that time, NONE of my hobbies seemed the slightest bit appealing. I almost was completely through Christmas before I began to feel alright again. I gave that man 3 days of my life when he threatened my well being INSTEAD OF bringing a gun into it. How much more "same as before" do you need?

One of the wisest things my father taught me was "learn from your near misses". He was speaking of automobile accidents that almost were, but I think it can be applied to pretty much anything. So IF my attitude on CC was wrong, that night drove it home. And after 3 days of feeling sick to my stomach over it, I'll be damned if some {inappropriate language} that doesn't even know me is going to talk to me like I'm anything short of in control of myself. There WAS a time where concern would've been warranted. I knew this so you know what I did? I didn't act on my impulse to get a gun. Once I had that worked out, I did. And I'm glad I did because it was a nice, calming finale to a very dangerous summer. It's good to be past that and I'm not going to allow you to victimize me by putting me back there. You can call an apple an orange all you want. It's still an apple. If your concern was genuine, you might've investigated where I'm coming from and found all of the above out. The fact that you'd skip past all that tastes more like trying to feel better about yourself that you're not as screwed up as me. Our collective fight here is against those who choose holier than thou as a weapon. We don't need them infiltrating our camp.

Post by **NavyChief** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:22 am

This is a perfect example of what OC is for - it gives you an "in between" tool.

Post by **NavyChief** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:16 am

OK, took a little time and read the entire thread. Here're my thoughts - nothing really new, although I do disagree with a few posters on a point...

1) As has been said by others, why not just pony up the 2L and call it a wrap? As someone who's never had the cajones to go into business on his own, I'm very reluctant to be critical of those that have - nonetheless, I'm inclined to think writing off a 2L is more than an acceptable loss.

2) As I mentioned above, having some OC would be very handy. A ½oz. cannister fits in the hand quite unobtrusively.

3) Here's where I digress from most others. With the goblin at 4', I would almost certainly have "gone to grips" while I was telling him to stop. Four feet just ain't much wiggle room at all. Granted, verbal commands did the trick. But what if they hadn't?

Petrovich · Post by **Petrovich** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:04 am

dan_sayers wrote:Well I'm not afraid, Mr. Emler and no amount of your abuse will change that. I've got confidence and I'm not afraid to say what's on my mind, even if I have the minority opinion. That frightens you? An independent thinker? Okay. But don't think for a moment you're going to run me off with your constant badgering. That's what I've learned. That I am strong. That I'm alright. That I AM entitled to know what "life" feels like. So I live it. When that punk in the apartment building tried to take that from me, I didn't let him. When the guy followed me and cornered me to scare me, I didn't let him. You attack me and try to make me feel out of place, I won't let you.

That's not what I'm doing. I wouldn't dream of running you off even if I could. I like you (I think). If my razzing is interpreted as badgering or trying to run you off you have my sincere apology....I'm on yer case 'cause you're a fun target, Dan, nothing more...sorry for overdoing it.

In fact, I'm gonna practice what I preach. When I encounter an irrational individual I am going to avoid confrontation...even if it bruises my pride or knocks some silly assed chip off my shoulder....it beats going to prison.

MR D · Post by **MR D** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:34 am

Having survived a "justified shoot" the DA said it was good....I can tell you they don't get that close period.

My guy was on drugs and alcohol, was not responding to my commands, had already assaulted my wife and started towards me while reaching towards his beltline under his jacket....

he also had three buddies sitting in the stolen car about fifteen feet from me....

all he got was one in the foot, when he turned and left (finally) I was locked on his head, if he had kept coming I would have only had time to give him two more....