OhioCCW Forums Changes

[Bersa45]

I don't understand. I have read the previous pages and it is all over the place. From what I have read it sounds like we can no longer post anything about OC topics. If OC topics were not discussed on these boards, how would we have heard about the protest in Campbell, Ohio or the 2a march in Columbus. Where would all that information have come from? The 2A march probably would not have went over as well as it did if we were all concealed carry. The OC of all of us in Columbus is really what turns heads to our cause.
The elimination of OC talk and political talk and the gatherings that these bring together will make it not as attractive to new members. This was a well moderated forum before these changes and very civil. Other forums full of information are not well moderated, full of flaming and bad language, but there are still good threads in them. If we don't like the threads we get out of them and seek another one. I am on several other forums and I think this one is the best moderated one the way it was before the changes. I am comfortable with change and will adapt. Weather that means staying or leaving, time will tell. I hope things stay good here.

[blah]

Third was in a recent thread where a new member asked about how long it takes to get his membership in the mail. OldManTod said he was busy and a little behind. That's fine as I said we're all busy. I offered in the thread and a PM to see if he could use help getting things processed and out. Again not so much as a "thanks, but no thanks."

I guess I presumed that since I responded publicly to the thread that I didn't need to go back in and specifically cut and paste the response - I will be more diligent in that next time to make sure I cut and paste the response.

<edited the rest out - OMT>

OMT. I'm sorry. The thread I mentioned was either moved, deleted, or moved to a mod only forum because I never saw it again after I posted my offer to you. So sometime between my post and your response the thread went somewhere and I never saw it again. So thank you for the response even though I never got to see it!

[wam35]

Does this mean that OFCC is going to help plan regular meet and greets in different counties? Or are the guidelines for planning them ourselves going to be simple?

In a perfect world wouldn't it be neat if these were regularly scheduled events around the State of Ohio coordinated as OFCC Community M&G's? This might be more effective at bringing new people into the fold instead of a protest walk because a city has an old ordinance on the books that is in violation of ORC 9.68 that they could remove if politely told about it. I think if we coordinated M&G's like we do gun show staffing it'd be an opportunity to disseminate information in local groups.

We will not put an end to M&G's. There will be a process to submit them and they'll get the green light by the moderators unless we have concerns with an individual or group putting on M&G's in OFCC's name. For the time being, just PM a moderator what you'd like to do, where, when, etc. The benefit of coordinating this as a group is that we could do targeted email announcements to the county where it'll be held via the alert system, and we could add them to the front page website calendar. The net effect would be an even better, more popular, more successful event.

Thank you for clearing this up.

[charben]

I don't understand. I have read the previous pages and it is all over the place. From what I have read it sounds like we can no longer post anything about OC topics. If OC topics were not discussed on these boards, how would we have heard about the protest in Campbell, Ohio or the 2a march in Columbus. Where would all that information have come from? The 2A march probably would not have went over as well as it did if we were all concealed carry. The OC of all of us in Columbus is really what turns heads to our cause.
The elimination of OC talk and political talk and the gatherings that these bring together will make it not as attractive to new members. This was a well moderated forum before these changes and very civil. Other forums full of information are not well moderated, full of flaming and bad language, but there are still good threads in them. If we don't like the threads we get out of them and seek another one. I am on several other forums and I think this one is the best moderated one the way it was before the changes. I am comfortable with change and will adapt. Weather that means staying or leaving, time will tell. I hope things stay good here.

Let me address a couple of these items.

First, discussing OC topics is not forbidden nor will it be. The only change that has been made relative to the Open Carry Discussion forum is that one must now log in to be able to read that forum.

Further, both the Campbell event and the 2A march were events coordinated, endorsed, and supported by OFCC as an organization. You will continue to hear about these kinds of events. However, un-official protest events (in other words, protest or demonstration events not coordinated by OFCC) can no longer be organized on our forums. M&G's we have no problem with but we are "tweaking" how we address that at the moment. We want to be as reasonable as possible.

As far as the political talk is concerned, this was a judgement call by the Coordinators, the Moderators, and the BOD. It is very similar to the decision made years ago to forbid the discussion of religion on these forums. We are trying to get the forums to better reflect the mission of this organization and that mission is dedicated to firearms rights. To be clear, the forums are an extension of OFCC...not the other way around. We believe that we will have a more attractive forum for more people by making these changes.

Thank you for your patience as we go through this...

[gmhiggins]

Charben, in an effort to not affiliate the OFCC with any OC event, a thread was created to discuss where else can be used to organize them....
That thread is now deleted. Do you have any insight? It was not an angry, complaining thread, just simply one to figure out where events can be organized to the OFCC is NOT involved, per their wishes.

[Rhino]

First, discussing OC topics is not forbidden now will it be.

He meant "nor will it be".

And that brings up a good point. A whole lot has been posted on the pages of this thread about what is going to "happen" on this forum. Very little of that total amount actually comes from the management itself, so try not to panic over something you've read if you haven't confirmed it with the management. Chances are that it may not be true, but rather just another miscommunication or misunderstanding. There's a whole lot of good members here I'd hate to see go away over a misunderstanding.

[dan dan the XD40 man]

Sort of a random question and I feel silly for even asking it, but in light of todays events I feel I must.

In the eyes of the OFCC admins and coordinators, will any open carry gathering ever be viewed as anything other than a protest? In other words, will OFCC ever green light an open carry meet and greet? Or is this part of what is being discussed still.

I had other questions this morning as I kept updated on the thread, but most of them have been answered between then and now bvy other peoples posts.

Thanks

[charben]

Sort of a random question and I feel silly for even asking it, but in light of todays events I feel I must.

In the eyes of the OFCC admins and coordinators, will any open carry gathering ever be viewed as anything other than a protest? In other words, will OFCC ever green light an open carry meet and greet? Or is this part of what is being discussed still.

I had other questions this morning as I kept updated on the thread, but most of them have been answered between then and now bvy other peoples posts.

Thanks

The short answer is yes. I think Jeff addressed this back a few posts. Things like the monthly social M&G's that have taken place will likely be "green lighted" for coordination on these forums. Look for more detail soon as Jeff and I talked about how to address those kinds of events tonight. It's being actively discussed...

[dan dan the XD40 man]

Sort of a random question and I feel silly for even asking it, but in light of todays events I feel I must.

In the eyes of the OFCC admins and coordinators, will any open carry gathering ever be viewed as anything other than a protest? In other words, will OFCC ever green light an open carry meet and greet? Or is this part of what is being discussed still.

I had other questions this morning as I kept updated on the thread, but most of them have been answered between then and now bvy other peoples posts.

Thanks

The short answer is yes. I think Jeff addressed this back a few posts. Things like the monthly social M&G's that have taken place will likely be "green lighted" for coordination on these forums. Look for more detail soon as Jeff and I talked about how to address those kinds of events tonight. It's being actively discussed...

Cool. He may have, it's been easy to miss things in here. Thanks Chris.

[William Bonney]

Important New Policy Changes Below

As you may have already noticed the OhioCCW Forums are going through some changes tonight.

These changes are being made in light of recent discussion among the moderation staff, the coordinators, the Board of Directors, and the organization's legal counsel. These changes were made after considering the organization's risks of liability, the risk of liability to our cause, and while attempting to maintain an environment where controversial topics can still be discussed with civility.


[*] Changes to the For Sale forums are coming later this month - more news later.

On a lighter note.

This is the one that worries me!

[Rhino]

Obviously I can't speak for the management but I have some idea of what they're up against because I've done forum redesigns before. A total revamp of a forum isn't really something you can finitely plan ahead of time. It's something like creating a sculpture. You generally know what you want it to look like in the end. You know what general shape to start with. But what finite adjustments, shavings, twists, remolds and reshapings you'll have to make along the way you really have little idea of until you actually come to them. And even some of those will have to be abandoned after trying them at first. That's why I counseled people to be patient. It may take some time for these changes to reach mature form, and I really don't think it's going to be as bad in the end as some people believe. But even if it is, you can still leave then.

Think about this calmly and logically for a moment. The management of OFCC has not taken leave of their senses. Putting emotions aside, we all know we have smart people leading the organization. They are completely aware that the forums here are important to the membership of OFCC, so obviously they aren't out to destroy them, nor to decimate the participation in them. But they have a legitimate concern over a legitimate issue, so they feel they have to do something. It's pretty obvious at this point that something is going to happen. The only real question is how that something takes shape and how we participate in it. The management has already said they will work with us to make this work as it needs to, so they are willing to make adjustments as necessary as long as the goals are achieved. All we need is the other side of the coin, we the membership to work with them to make it work as it needs to for all of us. Of course we have to stick around for that. Personally I'm not completely sure about some of the changes either, but I'm taking management at their word that they're willing to work with us to make any necessary changes we can. I have absolutely no reason to doubt their word. Obviously I can't speak for the membership any more than I can speak for management, but I'm hoping the membership will stick around for a while to see what we can do with the site together. Besides, it's gonna get boring around here without most of you guys.

[jgarvas]

[*] Changes to the For Sale forums are coming later this month - more news later.

On a lighter note.

This is the one that worries me!

I've received more private emails about THIS issue that I have negative responses about the other policy changes. I probably shouldn't have left the dangling "more news later" out there, but at the time the original post was made I was trying not to hold back on things I knew would be coming down the pike but hadn't finalized yet.

While I don't want to compound this thread with any more frustration, I wanted to let those of you concerned know that I've made a post on the For Sale forums explaining the entire For Sale changes coming "sometime in the future", most likely in March. The delay is entirely technical in nature and related to the automation of Site Supporter rank/logos.

To quash all of the myths up front for those who don't click the above link:

Most importantly: There are no intentions to change what items you may sell on the forums at all
Simply put: Unlimited NEW listings of items for sale will soon be a benefit of / extended to OFCC membership.

If you want the full details, go here: http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=50596" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you have items already listed and you're not a member, do not panic. They will not be removed (unless you're selling a truck load of magazines or something)

[JSLACK7851]

Wow, what a read.

I understand OFCC's need to protect themselves from a possible lawsuit. Since one was filed in Michigan. I see the similarities. Shouldn't the outcome of that lawsuit be learned b/4 turning everybody's world up side down?

I would think OFCC would become rich and famous should they be involved in such a lawsuit. The envy of the rest of the 2A org's. here in Ohio. Nobody gets noticed if they are not forerunners of what they believe in.

I also wonder why OFCC (Jeff), doesn't sponsor more M&G's. Is that another liability issue?

You are 9000 times more likely to die at a doctor's hand than at the hand of a gun owner. Yes, I have a copy of the stats in my OC folder.

For all you guys that want to jump ship, at least wait till you find out the ship is sinking first.... Then go from there.....

For you new guys, that may of brought wisdom and financial support, don't sell Jeff and his crew short yet. Wait and see....If OFCC really is going to put it too the Open Carriers, something else will surface. Necessity is the mother......

Oh, and Jeff, the 'no volunteers thing', really old. I wasn't qualified to pick up trash on your stretch of highway. But I volunteered.

[jgarvas]

Wow, what a read.
I understand OFCC's need to protect themselves from a possible lawsuit. Since one was filed in Michigan. I see the similarities. Shouldn't the outcome of that lawsuit be learned b/4 turning everybody's world up side down?

Don't focus on the lawsuit I mentioned. It was one mere example of why we want to be able to decide what type of events are posted here, and this is not just about civil liability. Its about liability to the cause, liability to our legislative goals, or liability in terms of case law. If the Michigan issue results in bad case law for gun owners who is to blame? Most likely the people who turned a regular open carry event into "lets bring a long gun into a library to make a point" and maybe went too far.

Just think: We are on the brink of restaurant carry legislation that also contains positive changes to the vehicle transport law. If there were an open carry event that went sideways and some misinformed department decided to invoke mass arrests and it became headline news what potential impact would that have on our legislative goals right now? It's one thing is its a friendly restaurant, it's another if it causes that restaurant to call the police and get us on the news because they had no idea we were coming armed.

If someone comes to us and says "we're going to have a flash mob open carry walk at Bill's Donut Shop" then we need to evaluate it. If someone says "We want to have a regular open carry based Meet & Greet every 4th Tuesday of the month and Bill's Donuts likes our money and our guns" then we're talking about two different animals.

If anyone has a problem with us picking and choose the difference between these events and if they should be advertised here, then I can offer you no explanation other than we intend to do it for the sake of our cause.

Case in point: Some people believe that the repeated open carry walks in Lake County caused a property that turned out to be private property to get posted. Some people who have open carried into certain establishments have caused those establishments to post "No Guns" signs for all of us.

I would think OFCC would become rich and famous should they be involved in such a lawsuit. The envy of the rest of the 2A org's. here in Ohio. Nobody gets noticed if they are not forerunners of what they believe in.

This is a somewhat narrow minded concept I guess. We don't get noticed if we're not forerunners, but we're not forerunners if we don't agree to allow anything imaginable happen on our organization's website? I believe this organization has created a rather professional reputation in the Statehouse, before numerous courts across the State of Ohio, and in the court of public opinion. We have a fiduciary responsibility to the dues paying members as a whole entity, including the substantial majority of them that are not represented here on the forums.

The belief that people get "rich and famous" through lawsuits is absurd. This organization has quite frankly spent literally thousands of dollars on lawsuits and has yet to win any financial payoff rewards. The chances of us simply breaking even in Campbell, Ohio are 50/50 at best. The pie in the sky belief that being wrongfully sued would somehow be a financial windfall for Ohioans For Concealed Carry is a magical dream. In Ohio, ORC 9.68 simply refunds your costs. Who gets paid? The lawyers - thats who gets paid, regardless of if we win or not.

I also wonder why OFCC (Jeff), doesn't sponsor more M&G's. Is that another liability issue?

Maybe you missed the post I made a few back where I said it'd be awesome if we could start running M&G's like the Gun Shows. I think when you see the submission form we're working on tonight (it's not live yet) you'll see that we're actually going down that road 100% - I think it'd be a great idea if we could coordinate more of them. The question becomes can we hold M&G's without someone insisting they need to open carry at it and get us booted out of an establishment where we could otherwise have some great socializing? I distinctly recall someone refusing to come to a Cleveland holiday M&G because we asked them not to open carry at the Cracker Barrel during our event.

You are 9000 times more likely to die at a doctor's hand than at the hand of a gun owner. Yes, I have a copy of the stats in my OC folder.

While I don't understand this point being made in this thread, you're also 9000 times less likely to get a business posted if you don't show up at their doors with 5-15 people openly carrying and scaring the bejesus out of the rest of their paying customers. I understand - its activism through educating people that what you're doing is legal, but the net result is another business invokes their private property rights to tell you never to come back again armed, and we all pay the price.

This is why we feel some open carry events might make sense and others on private property are a risk / liability to the cause. You're also probably 9000 times more likely to be successful diplomatically talking to city officials and equally as likely to get stonewalled if you call them up and threaten them with a lawsuit if they don't "stop violating ORC 9.68" -- yet we have people who continue to do this time and time again in some knee jerk reaction to "getting it done" through brute force.

Recently, while working one of these, the city officials asked us "Do you know who XYZ is?" and it became obvious that third parties here on the forums were poking a stick in the eye of city officials.

Oh, and Jeff, the 'no volunteers thing', really old. I wasn't qualified to pick up trash on your stretch of highway. But I volunteered.

I wasn't involved in any of the Highway project at all, so I have no idea what you're referring to other than the fact that we did one. I'm not sure why you were deemed "not qualified" - did you refuse to come without a gun? I believe that was a mandate of ODOT which we agreed to, so if you chose not to, nothing I can do about it.

I do thank you for your effort but if you're going to hold an ODOT rule against us (and I'm really speculating here) that seems unfair.

[diamondsun]

Well, it's amazing what happens when you take a day off of the web. I'm not young anymore, and I've found that I don't like change. However, I'm willing to see what happens here.

More carefully managing OC protests that are generated outside of the OFCC's organization is probably best for all of us.

However, if must say that I find the idea of any political advocacy group limiting political speech to be disturbing at best. I became a member here precisely for the reason that this forum catered to a broader range of subjects than just 2nd Amendment topics. I'm not a single dimensional individual, and I suspect that more than a few of the members here feel the same way. These "off topic" discussions are interesting and I've enjoyed these posts....really, I feel I understand where other members are coming from by their views on diverse subjects. If the public perception of members of this forum, or the off putting nature of political discussion on newbies are the real reason for closing comments on non-2A issues, then perhaps opening a purely political forum that is locked to nonmembers (like the OC thread is now) and clearly marked as being of a rough and tumble nature would be a better solution. Without being able to see views on other topics, it's likely that I'll frequent this board less and put my time and money elsewhere.....someplace that feels more like home.

Sudden changes that are already costing us members is not the way to grow an organization. I'm disappointed in the OFCC leadership, and am certain that this could have been better handled and broken more gently. I appreciate that you are willing to look into changes in the future, but maybe it would have been better to discuss it with your paying members and get feedback before making changes without warning. Look before you leap.

Finally, as a personal note.....there was a post on this thread that frankly disgusted me! Although I'm willing to keep an open mind about this new format, the actions of 1 person in this thread have already made me think very strongly about leaving. I've spent money on both a Patron and Supporter membership in the same year, knowing that the $25 would just become a donation, I've donated money and volunteered my time to this organization.........however, seeing such a churlish, puerile, and insolent treatment of a paying member has already moved me more than halfway into the leave camp.