as bad as it gets (test case)

[Shadow]

Moderators should not ban 'tipthecat'. We need the comic relief!

Tip might be inerested in this case...

http://www.theagitator.com/archives/026197.php

And Tip might also be interested to know that Police shoot more folks accidently, and in greater proportion, than CHL holders.

Some would say the operative word here is 'negligently', but hey, I never though most cops looked good in a negligee, so there!

It is also true that police shoot themselves more often, accidently, than members of the public, accidently.

Not that cops are bad or want it that way, it's just the nature of the beast.

Philip

[GasTurbine]

nice GT, some of the good old fashioned "my ..... is bigger than yours" talk.

He called me on it allen...he called me.

How about you?

[GasTurbine]

And Tip might also be interested to know that Police shoot more folks accidently, and in greater proportion, than CHL holders.

And Shadow might also be interested to know the Police have MANY more gun encounters than any CHL holders.

It is also true that police shoot themselves more often, accidently, than members of the public, accidently.

Not that cops are bad or want it that way, it's just the nature of the beast.

Right. In fact, it only makes sense. LEOs handle guns more than any other profession...it would only reason they have the most accidents.

And I dont have any stats, but I would bet hunters have more firearm accidents per capita than anyone else. Anybody know for sure?

[PAJOHNOHIO]

How can an occupant be secure without being approached?

There are several positions an LEO can have a subject assume which mitigate any potential threat.

However, the "occupant" is not secured until restrained. How many videos have we seen when someone is supposedly "secure" and ends up with the officer's weapon, using it against them.

[DWCol]

And Tip might also be interested to know that Police shoot more folks accidently, and in greater proportion, than CHL holders.

And Shadow might also be interested to know the Police have MANY more gun encounters than any CHL holders.

That's probably why he included the words "in greater proportion".

[deanimator]

And Shadow might also be interested to know the Police have MANY more gun encounters than any CHL holders.

They also have legal cover that most other people don't have.

If civilians had their own union willing to go to bat for them no matter WHAT they did, we could afford to be a little more cavalier in our attitudes. Instead, we're responsible for our own legal defense when we shoot somebody, no matter how justifiable the circumstances. Contrast this with instances like Officer Justin Volpe's encounter with Abner Louima, or the Chicago Police Union's demand that cops convicted of domestic violence be allowed to carry.

[NavyChief]

However, the "occupant" is not secured until restrained. How many videos have we seen when someone is supposedly "secure" and ends up with the officer's weapon, using it against them.

I will grant your point. Howsomever, a subject that's able to snatch an LEO's weapon from a face-down spread-eagle position (as one example that comes to mind as a reasonably "safe to approach" position)... Well, let's just say that perhaps LE wasn't really that person's calling in life.

[almega]

nice GT, some of the good old fashioned "my ..... is bigger than yours" talk.

He called me on it allen...he called me. How about you?

me? oh idk [edited for content -- TR], HAH, couldn't resist.

Also, Gas Turbine, WHY DO YOU POST TWO TIMES IN A ROW?!

If you feel the need to post something, then come back and post more, just edit your initial post and add the extra content to it. Someone send GT the "posting and you" training video please.

[OldManTod]

If you feel the need to post something, then come back and post more, just edit your initial post and add the extra content to it. Someone send GT the "posting and you" training video please.

and on top of that, the case of thick skin suits should be delivered any day now...

- T

[PAJOHNOHIO]

However, the "occupant" is not secured until restrained. How many videos have we seen when someone is supposedly "secure" and ends up with the officer's weapon, using it against them.

I will grant your point. Howsomever, a subject that's able to snatch an LEO's weapon from a face-down spread-eagle position (as one example that comes to mind as a reasonably "safe to approach" position)... Well, let's just say that perhaps LE wasn't really that person's calling in life.

I think we are splitting hairs. Safe to approach is much different than "secured." It's the same thing as a the "unloaded" gun not killing anyone. What may appear one way, is actually another.

[Shadow]

Gas Turbine,

The reason police seem to shoot a disproportionate number of innocents is usually ascribed, not to the fact that they have more encounters, but to the fact that they have to intervene and make judgements in situations with a minimum of information.

CHL holders, on the other hand, are in generally positive about the target as they are being attacked and the perpetrator is not in doubt.

There was no intent in my post to do any cop bashing. I don't go there. It was simply a recitation of fact in order to clarify, for Tip, the situation in which Dan found himself and that it was indeed, dangerous as cops were trying to figure out if the person they were pursuing was a good guy or a bad guy.

Not all stories have the positive ending Dan's had in this respect. Sometimes cops make a mistake and innocent people get hurt, no matter haw hard police do try to avoid it.

Philip

[THE BIG HAMMER]

And Tip might also be interested to know that Police shoot more folks accidently, and in greater proportion, than CHL holders.

And Shadow might also be interested to know the Police have MANY more gun encounters than any CHL holders.

It is also true that police shoot themselves more often, accidently, than members of the public, accidently.

Not that cops are bad or want it that way, it's just the nature of the beast.

Right. In fact, it only makes sense. LEOs handle guns more than any other profession...it would only reason they have the most accidents.

And I dont have any stats, but I would bet hunters have more firearm accidents per capita than anyone else. Anybody know for sure?

Maybe, except for the gang bangin homeys in the hood.
They probably never had a hunter safety course.

[oceansands]

DAN,
I am really sorry man! I feel bad for you! I really hope this all works out!! I don't see how either one of those guys will keep their job! I like cops, but come on!!!!!

[jemc02]

Don't forget that our conversation began with officer Costanzo commanding me to keep my hands on the steering wheel when I had already put them there myself.

In an attempt to get this thread somewhat back on point...the above command seems legit to me. I would agree that you already HAD your hands on the wheel for them to command you to KEEP them there. I hear police tell people to do things all the time that they were already doing...makes sense to me. I didn't tell you to do it in the first place but I want you to keep doing it so I tell you to.

I do understand your concern about having a rifle pointed at you when YOU know that you didn't do anything wrong but I think that we would all want the biggest gun in the fight if we had to take on someone that was KNOWN to have two pistols, one on each hip. If I had to confront an unknown person with two guns and I had either a shotgun or rifle you can bet one of them would be in my hands before my handgun...

Before you got out of the vehicle and where they could SEE that they were still there, the officers did not know for sure where either of your handguns were.

I also think that you have taught all of us something when a lot of newer vehicles automatically lock the doors. One more thing to do when getting pulled over after turning on inside lights (if it is dark out) and rolling the window down would be for me to make sure that my doors are unlocked. I never thought of that before but I sure will now.

A lot of your problems during the stop MIGHT have been less if you would have been ABLE to open your door the way they asked you the first time. I'm sure that you would have seemed to them to be more compliant to them if you would have been ABLE to open the door and exit the vehicle (after taking the seatbelt off) the way they wanted you too.

Once again I have to say that this situation sucks. Too many things happened that were outside of your control that might have seemed to them that you were being uncooperative.

IF they could have taken more time to run your plates, things probably wouldn't have gone down in the same way. IF you were able to exit the vehicle they way they wanted you to begin with things probably wouldn't have gone down in the same way. IF if if...

[Javelin Man]

Why didn't one of the officers just walk up and open the door himself all the while having Dan keep his hands on the steering wheel? Or just plain stop, take a breath, and work the situation out instead of continually screaming and working themselves into a frenzy at which time anything poor Dan could do would be perceived as a threat to them?

Very unprofessional.

Has anyone heard back from anybody in power in Oregon from emails sent to them?