When did it happen?

[MyWifeSaidYes]

Perception IS important, but is the ACT of open carry what set the OC bill back in Texas?

No, not IMHO.

It was NOT the 'extremist' carrying of firearms but the extremist VERBAL ATTACKS IN the congressional offices.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbfxRQRQOTY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And if you haven't been made aware of what is motivating the OCT group, here he is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMgkqYe7b64" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[BobK]

Perception IS important, but is the ACT of open carry what set the OC bill back in Texas?

No, not IMHO.

It was NOT the 'extremist' carrying of firearms but the extremist VERBAL ATTACKS IN the congressional offices.

I totally disagree. Certainly rude & aggressive behavior in the congressional offices was both stupid and damaging.

But as I posted here in these forums last summer, long before the current legislative session started in January, the antics like the kids open carrying AK's in Starbucks and other private businesses started the melt down of concerned people forming negative perceptions of OC and they expressed those concerns in no uncertain terms. Unlicensed open carry was absolutely dead before Labor Day.

As it stands now, without Herculean efforts to repair damage and relationships by Alice Tripp of TSRA and the local NRA officials, the licensed open carry bill would never have passed.

[Werz]

However, the issue is not open carry, the issue is rude, obstructive, obnoxious and unproductive behavior.

^^This right here.

Open carry is inherently a political activity (regardless of intention). Having a poor attitude and appearance does not help public opinion of all gun owners. The issue shouldn't be about open carry, it should be about being a good ambassador for our cause.

+1

My goal is to normalize the public carry of firearms, particularly open carry. I want people to be so comfortable with it that they don't even notice it. I open carry frequently, moreso as the weather gets warmer, and I have not yet had any negative reaction. Questions, yes, but nothing negative.

Unfortunately, open carry has become associated with camouflage, Gadsen flags, CopBlock morons, loudmouth lawyer wannabees, and general social misfits. And barring descent into TEOTWAWKI, it will not be normal to carry long arms on urban and suburban streets.

These are not acts of normalization; they are acts of alienation. And to those who say they helping to preserve my rights, I can only respond: please, please, PLEASE stop helping!

Edit: And if want to seek attention by annoying people and attracting undue attention from law enforcement, go dance naked in front of your picture window.

[Chuck]

I was asking specifically about laws, but let me ask this, are Starbucks, Chipotle, and Target posted CPZs today?

They are not CPZ's. However, those events cannot be dismissed completely because the open carry of rifles in these establishments (with documented pictures of unsafe gun handling) created such a storm of negative publicity in both the local papers and on the local newscasts, that the the phone lines to legislators had a melt down.

Reports of melting phone lines to legislators doesn't faze me very much.
Here in Ohio, we do that from time to time, but since it's pro-gun, it doesn't become well known.
I'm looking for occasions when thsi extreme activism actually made things worse

Unfortunately, unlicensed carry (open and concealed) was doomed to failure this session of the Texas Legislature before the session ever started due to that negative publicity. Before the negative publicity started, the expectations were we could easily pass licensed open carry in 2015, get people used to the idea, and then pass unlicensed carry in the 2017 session. I have no idea how long that well has been poisoned now.

That well was poisoned long before then, my friend, or else open carry would have been the law of the land long ago
Texas was anti-open carry long before 2014

By the way, I am not talking about isolated idjits. I am talking about the actions of organized groups, specifically Open Carry Texas and Open Carry Tarrant County, including their respective leaders CJ Grisham and Cory Watkins.

And people who transport legally in freezer bags,,,,

Chuck, I also want to make sure that you and everyone else understand that I am not trying to attack you personally, or anyone else in these forums. I am simply trying to give my political perspective of the unfortunate events in Texas. The ironic thing is I fully support the concept of unlicensed carry (open and concealed), but am frustrated that bizarre behavior has blocked such progress.

We're all big boys here, don't worry about it
I'm simply challenging the perspective
The perspective is that these open carry idiots are turning the clock backwards, making things worse.
The perspective is that these open carry idiots are responsible for open carry being illegal when the reality is open carry has been illegal forever in Texas anyway.

Bob, I want to make sure you and everyone else understand that I am not saying I like anything these idiots are doing.
I'm just saying I don't think it's made any difference, what so ever

Hence my question, When did it happen?

[soberbiker]

I believe it happened when people started putting videos on you tube of how "awesome" they are when they carried an AR down the street and the cops couldn't even make them show their identification.

[Chuck]

I believe it happened when people started putting videos on you tube of how "awesome" they are when they carried an AR down the street and the cops couldn't even make them show their identification.

My question is when did that cause the law to be changed against gun rights?

[daveinohio]

I believe it happened when people started putting videos on you tube of how "awesome" they are when they carried an AR down the street and the cops couldn't even make them show their identification.

My question is when did that cause the law to be changed against gun rights?

The Texas open carriers didn't cause any laws to be passed against gun rights but they very effectively convinced businesses to prevent any firearms from being carried on their premises and not just those in Texas. I guess if you really can restrict your carrying to businesses that do not post, you're "winning."

[MacDonald]

I like your sense of humor

[Chuck]

My question is when did that cause the law to be changed against gun rights?

The Texas open carriers didn't cause any laws to be passed against gun rights but they very effectively convinced businesses to prevent any firearms from being carried on their premises and not just those in Texas. I guess if you really can restrict your carrying to businesses that do not post, you're "winning."

What businesses have they "convinced"?
What businesses are posted now that weren't before?

[daveinohio]

What businesses have they "convinced"?
What businesses are posted now that weren't before?

From another thread:
I know that Fairfield Medical Center in Lancaster, Ohio didn't have signs until shortly after I open carried there, so it wouldn't surprise me if the Urgent Care wasn't posted.

[diamondsun]

I think some of the problem between those of us in the gun community over OC is that all we talk about is OC. Already in this post, we've had Alan talking about OC'ing around VA, and others talking about the OCT folks. Those are two very separate issues and what we need to do is separate them. Alan, Chuck and most of us are talking about OC of a handgun. Discussing the OTC people, we're talking about long gun open carry.

Handguns are primarily defesnive arms and are recognised as such by most people, even if they don't really think about it. They are used to seeing handguns carried by police, and the way many of us dress, we are probably dismissed as off duty or plainclothed police. Everyone says nobody notices them open carrying. I've seen people notice when I OC, but they are either curious or percieve no threat. No reaction.

Rifles and shotguns are primarily offensive weapons. How many times have we heard that a handgun's only use is to fight your way to your rifle? You don't see rifles, in public, outside of SWAT teams (usually in the hood on drug raids) and the military (patrolling somewhere in the sandbox). People will instictively percieve a rifle as a threat more than a sidearm.

Just in my humble opinion, we need to discuss these separately. To me, a sidearm being open carried is for self defense and should garner little comment wherever it's carried. A rifle or shotgun, on the other hand, should be kept out of the public arena except in certain cases. Just off the top of my head, I can only see 4 real reasons to have long guns out and about:
Going hunting

Going to the range (though I think we can all see a difference between walking to a neighbor's in the country vs. walking down Main St. with an AR in hand)

Defense (though this gets tricky too. wan't it Toledo where the guy popped a few AK rounds to disperse the dangerous crowd but got charged for it?)

Political Theater (here is probably where offensive weapons should be seen most. public protests in front of legitimate political or business protest targets. and please, don't carry your rifle into business that aren't involved. if you're hungry or thirsty, have a friend hold your rifle)

Now, flame away.

[Chuck]

What businesses have they "convinced"?
What businesses are posted now that weren't before?

From another thread:
I know that Fairfield Medical Center in Lancaster, Ohio didn't have signs until shortly after I open carried there, so it wouldn't surprise me if the Urgent Care wasn't posted.

So YOU got a place posted by OCing there, but you don't know of any that the Texas OC crowd got posted
Do I have that right?

I presume you were OCing a handgun and not a long gun?

[Chuck]

Just in my humble opinion, we need to discuss these separately. To me, a sidearm being open carried is for self defense and should garner little comment wherever it's carried. A rifle or shotgun, on the other hand, should be kept out of the public arena except in certain cases.

I'll agree that in most conversations they ought to be discussed separately, but for the purposes of THIS conversation, they belong together.
Because (so far) neither long guns nor hand guns have caused a loss of rights, nor bad laws to be passed.

[Brian D.]

What businesses have they "convinced"?
What businesses are posted now that weren't before?

From another thread:
I know that Fairfield Medical Center in Lancaster, Ohio didn't have signs until shortly after I open carried there, so it wouldn't surprise me if the Urgent Care wasn't posted.

So YOU got a place posted by OCing there, but you don't know of any that the Texas OC crowd got posted
Do I have that right?

I presume you were OCing a handgun and not a long gun?

Chuck, as memory serves from a few days ago, daveinohio is using a quote from MyWifeSaidYes. Pretty sure it was MWSY who stated that medical center posted 'No guns' signage right after he OC'd there.

[Chuck]

Chuck, as memory serves from a few days ago, daveinohio is using a quote from MyWifeSaidYes. Pretty sure it was MWSY who stated that medical center posted 'No guns' signage right after he OC'd there.

O I C
Thanks for that explanation