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Ohio concealed carry for teachers

Discussion of Firearm Politics & Legislation. This forum is now strictly limited to discussions directly related to firearms.

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Tweed Ring
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Re: Ohio concealed carry for teachers

Post by Tweed Ring »

db9938 wrote:I am at a loss o familiarity with collective bargaining. I've never been in one, nor had an opportunity to be a part of one. That said, I will defer to your experience with regards to their innate behaviors.

I do have one question, that is somewhat related to the idea of additional duties. Do, or have, bargaining units ask/asked for additional monies for maintaining Red Cross or American Heart Association certifications in CPR and AED use?

They may appear to be unrelated, with regards to CHL, but both are potentially life saving measures, require training, and can be deadly if applied incorrectly.

With regards to your statement on target type and classification, we are in total agreement. Sometimes the best defense is just the image of invulnerability.

And yes, the SRO's are armed. Here is a website that has some more info:

http://www.osroa.org
I have no knowledge as to how Ohio’s teachers union deal with requesting compensation for maintaining Red Cross or American Heart Association certifications in CPR and AED use. I never had to deal with those specific issues. My few teachers were always re-certified during their annual, paid, in-service training.

However, I believe the teachers unions will see the issue of armed unionized teachers as yet another opportunity for them to gently place their collective noses into the money trough, via their specific union contractual language, and also under Ohio Revised Code 4117.

I am well aware that if there is a situation which may provide additional financial compensation to their bargaining unit members, the union hierarchy will eventually push for that compensation to be awarded on the basis of recognized union seniority, and not desire to serve nor on any demonstrated employee competence. Failure to recognize and appoint on the basis of union seniority, and specified minimum qualifications can be very expensive in any subsequent grievance arbitration.

I shall assume that some employers, to avoid these and other potential job-related problems with the unions which will be philosophically against arming teachers. The teachers unions support the Ohio Democrat Party, and the ODP supports the union. Fact of life.

Moreover, the ODP does not seem to endorse the concept of self-defense, as evidenced by a number of votes in the OGA, and by much commentary by their elected officials. Therefore, the employer may just choose to altogether avoid the issue of armed teachers.

Thanks for the website.

My school resource officers, as such, at East Cleveland's Shaw High School, early to mid 1960's, had helmets, clubs, handcuffs, guns, and very little patience.
db9938
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Re: Ohio concealed carry for teachers

Post by db9938 »

Well, it is becoming quite evident that I am thankful not to work under the thumb of a union.

At the school that I teach, everyone goes through CPR/AED training/cert. And I might add, no one grumbles over the fact that it is pseudo mandatory. Which is nice thing, considering what the knowledge can do.

That said, I hope that the comparison between the two was fair, and a true apple-to-apple comparison. And I would think that if unions were looking for additional revenue generation for their membership, then I would think that CPR/AED, could be that avenue. I think that we can both recognize the inherent risks involved, as well as the potential increased frequency of use of one versus the other. Granted, the training with one is a day long session, and the other is multiple days multiple sessions, but there is compensation for said training.

Maybe I am just different with seeing both sorts of training, as life saving. But then I teach at a school where there are more CHL holders, than non-holders.

With regards to compensation, based on seniority, there are changes afoot that will bring it to an end. I have mixed feelings about the methodology, and to be honest I am not sure if it will endure the test of time.
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dsk
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Re: Ohio concealed carry for teachers

Post by dsk »

Tweed Ring wrote:If the grievant, and his union, file a well-worded document, detailing how the terms and conditions were impacted, an arbitrator will, in all probability, hear the compliant. Frankly, this is a grievance almost ripe, and begging to be heard.

I predict, if this ever comes to pass, the OEA will ask for training held on paid OT, will eventually request a performance bonus, and possibly other enhancements.

Ohio's Collective Bargaining Legislation was passed by a Democrat OGA, and signed by a Democrat governor. It would never be passed today, by this OGA and this governor. But, when the OGA tried to pass SB 5, and pulled the governor into that mess, a change to the Collective Bargaining process, they got their lunch handed to them.
The OEA will involve themselves as much as possible in this situation. Eventually, they will ask for paid (OT) training, and eventually a performance bonus or performance enhancement. It's the way of bargaining collectively in Ohio. I doubt the OGA, once burned, twice shy, will involve themselves in this issue.

Please don't believe me...just watch what happens.
OEA, being the brain dead organization it has become, may well see it as an opportunity to get some extra compensation for teachers, and if boards agree, those records are public, and anybody can find out which teachers are armed, thereby defeating what I think is an important part of the concealed carry law, and placing the teachers at increased risk, and watering down the "there's no way to know which teachers are armed" deterrent effect.

The first amendment to the new law, should it pass and become law, will hopefully deal with this problem. If OEA had a clue, it would be lobbying for this change now.
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JediSkipdogg
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Re: Ohio concealed carry for teachers

Post by JediSkipdogg »

dsk wrote:OEA, being the brain dead organization it has become, may well see it as an opportunity to get some extra compensation for teachers, and if boards agree, those records are public, and anybody can find out which teachers are armed, thereby defeating what I think is an important part of the concealed carry law, and placing the teachers at increased risk, and watering down the "there's no way to know which teachers are armed" deterrent effect.

The first amendment to the new law, should it pass and become law, will hopefully deal with this problem. If OEA had a clue, it would be lobbying for this change now.
You bring up an interesting point there. A few others and myself spoke with John Benner and a few other TDI staff during the Fun n Gun today about this issue. Benner states that schools have to tell you if they allow armed staff (not armed SRO, but armed staff in the school.) He said however, who is armed is all allowed to be hid in their Emergency Action Plan which must be filed with the attorney general. EAPs are not public record under Ohio law.

You however bring up a good point if teachers go via the compensation angle. Technically all teacher salaries are public record. So in a sense, just doing some math, one could figure out who is authorized and who isn't. Give some two bit media station an inch, they will take a mile and publish the heck out of that.
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I am not a lawyer. My answers are based on research, knowledge, and are generally backed up with facts, the Ohio Revised Code, or the United States Code.
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Werz
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Re: Ohio concealed carry for teachers

Post by Werz »

FWIW, if anyone wants to see an anonymized copy of an armed teacher agreement that is already in place, and which involves no additional duties or compensation, I have one available.

It can be done. It has been done.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
Tweed Ring
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Re: Ohio concealed carry for teachers

Post by Tweed Ring »

Couple of questions, please:

1.) Is this a union shop?

2.) Is there any additional compensation, i.e. pay, benefits, compensatory time, etc. accrued by these volunteers?
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Re: Ohio concealed carry for teachers

Post by Duke of Advil »

I have a question that I have not seen brought up. How will this affect private schools and private preschools? My sons preschool teacher has a permit....or will be getting one shortly. I also know some of the maintenance staff are also licensed, though they do not carry there. Will this affect them or is there another bill that would cover these teachers/workers?
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Tweed Ring
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Re: Ohio concealed carry for teachers

Post by Tweed Ring »

Duke of Advil wrote:I have a question that I have not seen brought up. How will this affect private schools and private preschools? My sons preschool teacher has a permit....or will be getting one shortly. I also know some of the maintenance staff are also licensed, though they do not carry there. Will this affect them or is there another bill that would cover these teachers/workers?
All of these questions are issues to be determined by the employer.
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Werz
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Re: Ohio concealed carry for teachers

Post by Werz »

Tweed Ring wrote:Couple of questions, please:

1.) Is this a union shop?
I believe so. I was able to find a copy of a recent collective bargaining agreement.
Tweed Ring wrote:2.) Is there any additional compensation, i.e. pay, benefits, compensatory time, etc. accrued by these volunteers?
No. Specifically and intentionally, no.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
Duke of Advil
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Re: Ohio concealed carry for teachers

Post by Duke of Advil »

Tweed Ring wrote:
Duke of Advil wrote:I have a question that I have not seen brought up. How will this affect private schools and private preschools? My sons preschool teacher has a permit....or will be getting one shortly. I also know some of the maintenance staff are also licensed, though they do not carry there. Will this affect them or is there another bill that would cover these teachers/workers?
All of these questions are issues to be determined by the employer.
I need some clarification on your post Tweed. Is your statement meant for including the bill or independent?
Are the employees currently restricted to not carry because of a state statute or are they restricted because of the employer?



I almost think I should start a new thread because this question spills over into a couple different areas. This is a multiple use building. Monday-Thursday 8am-5pm this wing of the church is a preschool. No one is able to accessed the preschool from the rest of the church without a key. Currently some of the maintenance crew carry in the rest of the building all day, every day, but must secure their sidearm if they enter the Preschool wing to do any work. The church allows members and staff to carry in the building as long as they do not enter the preschool section when preschool is in session. Because the building is a church at all other times members/staff are allowed to carry, with permission.
Basically what I want to get my head around is.... is the reason I cannot carry there because of a law or its it the policy of the preschool/church
In one hand I've a Bible,
In the other I've got a gun.
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Tweed Ring
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Re: Ohio concealed carry for teachers

Post by Tweed Ring »

Werz wrote:
Tweed Ring wrote:Couple of questions, please:

1.) Is this a union shop?
I believe so. I was able to find a copy of a recent collective bargaining agreement.
Tweed Ring wrote:2.) Is there any additional compensation, i.e. pay, benefits, compensatory time, etc. accrued by these volunteers?
No. Specifically and intentionally, no.
One more, please?

OEA or AFT?
Tweed Ring
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Re: Ohio concealed carry for teachers

Post by Tweed Ring »

Duke of Advil wrote:
Tweed Ring wrote:
Duke of Advil wrote:I have a question that I have not seen brought up. How will this affect private schools and private preschools? My sons preschool teacher has a permit....or will be getting one shortly. I also know some of the maintenance staff are also licensed, though they do not carry there. Will this affect them or is there another bill that would cover these teachers/workers?
All of these questions are issues to be determined by the employer.
I need some clarification on your post Tweed. Is your statement meant for including the bill or independent?
Are the employees currently restricted to not carry because of a state statute or are they restricted because of the employer?



I almost think I should start a new thread because this question spills over into a couple different areas. This is a multiple use building. Monday-Thursday 8am-5pm this wing of the church is a preschool. No one is able to accessed the preschool from the rest of the church without a key. Currently some of the maintenance crew carry in the rest of the building all day, every day, but must secure their sidearm if they enter the Preschool wing to do any work. The church allows members and staff to carry in the building as long as they do not enter the preschool section when preschool is in session. Because the building is a church at all other times members/staff are allowed to carry, with permission.
Basically what I want to get my head around is.... is the reason I cannot carry there because of a law or its it the policy of the preschool/church
I believe all employees, including non teachers, are precluded statutorily, from carrying in a school. However, with appropriate permission, they all may be allowed to carry. The key component is appropriate permission.
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Werz
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Re: Ohio concealed carry for teachers

Post by Werz »

Tweed Ring wrote:One more, please?

OEA or AFT?
It appears that the collective bargaining unit is OEA/NEA-affiliated.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
Tweed Ring
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Re: Ohio concealed carry for teachers

Post by Tweed Ring »

Thanks.

If this is a one off, I can understand OEA’s failure to push the issue, to date. But, if and when it comes down to seniority and compensation, they will be aggressive.
db9938
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Re: Ohio concealed carry for teachers

Post by db9938 »

dsk wrote:
Tweed Ring wrote:If the grievant, and his union, file a well-worded document, detailing how the terms and conditions were impacted, an arbitrator will, in all probability, hear the compliant. Frankly, this is a grievance almost ripe, and begging to be heard.

I predict, if this ever comes to pass, the OEA will ask for training held on paid OT, will eventually request a performance bonus, and possibly other enhancements.

Ohio's Collective Bargaining Legislation was passed by a Democrat OGA, and signed by a Democrat governor. It would never be passed today, by this OGA and this governor. But, when the OGA tried to pass SB 5, and pulled the governor into that mess, a change to the Collective Bargaining process, they got their lunch handed to them.
The OEA will involve themselves as much as possible in this situation. Eventually, they will ask for paid (OT) training, and eventually a performance bonus or performance enhancement. It's the way of bargaining collectively in Ohio. I doubt the OGA, once burned, twice shy, will involve themselves in this issue.

Please don't believe me...just watch what happens.
OEA, being the brain dead organization it has become, may well see it as an opportunity to get some extra compensation for teachers, and if boards agree, those records are public, and anybody can find out which teachers are armed, thereby defeating what I think is an important part of the concealed carry law, and placing the teachers at increased risk, and watering down the "there's no way to know which teachers are armed" deterrent effect.

The first amendment to the new law, should it pass and become law, will hopefully deal with this problem. If OEA had a clue, it would be lobbying for this change now.
That would apply, unless that decision was made as a part of an executive decision secession. That could shield it from the umbrella laws.
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