Concealed Carry Person Arrested In Columbus

[Shadow]

Dear Buckshot,

My comment was to the point.

There is nothing wrong with with aiding a cop if he's in trouble.

From a person that taught cops to shoot for years, (me, not you) you are obviously uninformed.

Trust me, it IS appropriate to help an officer that's trying to stay alive.

I wasn't referring to Barney Fife trying using his revolver to start the sack race at the 4th of July picnic.

And no, I didn't take a CCW class. I have taught a few hundred of them, however, and a few hundred instructors.

Philip NRA TC, LEO instructor, 2nd Amendment lobbiest, USMC Viet Vet, Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah

[whysyn]

I thought, in Ohio at least, if you are given an order to render assistance by a uniformed police officer that you were not only automatically "field deputized" but also required by law to assist by whatever means you have at your own disposal.

I thought this was the case in Ohio... or maybe I just picked the wrong day to quit sniffing glue.

[Buckshot]

Dear Buckshot,

My comment was to the point.

There is nothing wrong with with aiding a cop if he's in trouble.

From a person that taught cops to shoot for years, (me, not you) you are obviously uninformed.

Trust me, it IS appropriate to help an officer that's trying to stay alive.

I wasn't referring to Barney Fife trying using his revolver to start the sack race at the 4th of July picnic.

And no, I didn't take a CCW class. I have taught a few hundred of them, however, and a few hundred instructors.

Philip NRA TC, LEO instructor, 2nd Amendment lobbiest, USMC Viet Vet, Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah

Shadow,

I don't know you so I have no way of evaluating what you are telling me so I have NO INTENTION of trusting you!

I do trust the 3 OPOTA certified LE instructors and the two other NRA Certified instructors I work with in presenting CCW and LE classes. I do trust several other NRA Certified Instructors and OPOTA Certified LE instrutors that I know. I also know and trust the guys that taught me my MP training for the State Guard in Ohio.

ALL of these people INCLUDING THE LE instructors (most working deputies and the rest either Special Deputies or Municipal Officers) instruct students to NEVER attempt to help a Law Enforcement Officer NO MATTER the SITUATION unless you are KNOW TO THE OFFICER and HELP IS REQUESTED BY THE OFFICER!

MP trainers had much the same instructions. You have NO authority until: 1. Actvated by the Governor. 2. Placed in a situation where Martial Law and/or the OCMJ is in effect. 3. Placed under orders and Armed as an MP. 4. Detailed by a shift commander with a specific duty and post or patrol area and given specific instructiosn and rules of engagement. Until ALL of these conditions are met you are just another civilian.

Now, if I see a horor story situation, single officer in a single car gunned down before me on the highway in a traffic stop, or pinned down in the same situation, I MAY do someting to help besides get on the phone, but I am sure as hell not going to come screaming up behind the LE and scare the hell out of him so that he either gets shot by the perp reacting to my approach or shoots me on approach!

If I see two or three LE cars with one vehicle stopped and them calling someone out of the car with guns drawn I am going to keep motoring right on by. Yes, I probably see this at least once a year, I live very close to I-75 and am on it most ever day sometime during the day.

Buckshot

[Buckshot]

I thought, in Ohio at least, if you are given an order to render assistance by a uniformed police officer that you were not only automatically "field deputized" but also required by law to assist by whatever means you have at your own disposal.

I thought this was the case in Ohio... or maybe I just picked the wrong day to quit sniffing glue.

Whysyn,

I have heard this a time or six, but no one has ever provided the "chapter and verse" of where it can be found in the ORC.

I would really like to see that "chapter and verse" if anyone can provide it.

Buckshot

[Scott]

Generally, I would stay out of a situation for which I am neither trained, nor legally protected, if I participate.

Having said that, a situation could arise where it is very clear cut that:

if I do not assist the officer, the officer (and subsequently others) may die or be seriously injured

and

if I do assist, the officer will neither die nor be seriously injured.

I am reminded of just such a clear cut situation where a female officer was attempting an arrest on a much bigger male.

A wrestling match ensued and the male got the officer's firearm away from her. If a passerby had not immediately intervened and wrestled the firearm away from the badguy and held it on said badguy until the officer could recover, there would have been a VERY different outcome, I am certain.

As an aside, another passerby (a fat lady) also rendered assistance by sitting on the badguy until backup could arrive. I do not know if she asked to be deputized first...

[Shadow]

Buckshot,

All those LEOs you trained under would rather die than have you save thier life, I'm sure.

That's what we're talking about. Someone living and dying.

As I said, helping a cop in trouble is OK.

As a matter of fact, CCW licensees have saved quite a few cop's lives and have killed none.

You can intervene to protect anyone in danger of bodily harm or death. The law specifically recognizes that. No law says you have to let a person be hurt or killed because they are a cop.

Your LEO instructors were trying to prevent 'cop wanna bees' from getting in their road when they are trying to control a situation or simply prevent having another unknown variable added to a situation.

I know that's a fact because I've trained a lot of them.

We're not talking about cop wanna bees. I don't wanna be a cop or I'd be a cop.

I'm a Libertarian, so it's politically impossible for me to want to become an LEO.

I'm talking about is when police are NOT in control of the situation. I'm talking about when they are in real trouble.

When you get ready to go for your instructor credentials let me know, I'll do yours for free. It'll be a pleasure!

OBTW my NRA TC number is 23189309, exp. 10/31/2008. Check with NRA.

I usually don't debate using an 'argument from authority', but felt it was OK given you mentioned your instructors.

The NRA trains more Police instructors than any other organization. They likely trained yours. I no longer work with cadets since moving to Ohio.

Thanks,

Philip

[Dr. Winston]

Ha ha, Here I go starting a post and stirring up {inappropriate language} again! Sorry

Well, maybe not! Why? Because it sounds like these posts are making some of us 'think', which is ALWAYS good. However, I don't ever want to be the cause of getting people at each others throats here on this board. Remember, we are all here because we believe in the same thing and want to stand up, support the Constitution, the second amendment, and each other in our rights to KEEP and BARE arms! Now with that said, let me say this.

When it comes to standing up for an LEO in trouble, I couldn't stand by and do nothing. Yea I know about all the legal ramifications and such, but I run around with a few of these folks, ride motorcycles with them and although yes I got my CCL to protect my family, I also got it to protect anyone who is placed in my path who I have the ability to protect!

When I spent 8 years in the Military, I wasn't sworn to only protect my own! But to protect anyone, regardless of race, creed or color and regardless of what branch they served in. We were (and still are) all fighting for the same side!

Mind you, the comment about 'first responder', I understood, but think about it. The police show up AFTER the crap hits the fan! They are not bound to walk around and protect us. Most forces used to use the motto 'To serve and protect', but even the Supreme Court has ruled that is NOT they're responsibility! They can't be at the scene of every crime until AFTER they have been called! WE on the other hand 'A free people, armed and disciplined' are usually the first at the scene (especially if it happens to us or our own.)

Now I know this comment will P.O. a bunch of trained LEO's and I'm sorry about that, but most LEO's that I have known in the past 30+ years are so poorly trained when it comes to their firearms that I think my MOTHER could out shoot most of them! Sure there are PROFESSIONALS out their who train and care about not only their own lives, but they do indeed want to make a difference in the world. That's where we are similar. I could not, would not, stand by and watch someone being taken down by a bad guy!

I'll worry about all the legal stuff AFTER I have helped save a life! I'm not saying that if you disagree with this that you're wrong or anything. It's just me, that's all.

Oh by the way, for those of you who didn't know this, my posting 'signature' at the bottom was quoted by George Washington himself! Imagine that!

Peace

[willbird]

I honestly do not see where being a Libertatrion precludes an interest in LE, in the Libertarion framework of a perfect world there are no police officers ?? They might be doing a differant job but the need would still be there, in a Libertarion utopia we would have people who are willing to harm and kill others, we would still have automobile accidents, fires, and explosions.


Bill

[Turk182]

ORC 2921.23 FAILURE TO AID A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER.

(a) No person shall negligently fail or refuse to aid a law enforcement officer, when called upon for assistance in preventing or halting the commission of an offense, (i.e. the officer is being attacked) or in apprehending or detaining an offender, when such aid can be given without a substantial risk of physical harm to the person giving it.

(b) Whoever violates this section is guilty of failure to aid a law enforcement officer, a minor misdemeanor.


ORC 2917.13 MISCONDUCT AT AN EMERGENCY.

(a) No person shall knowingly do any of the following:

(1) Hamper the lawful operations of any law enforcement officer, fire-fighter, rescuer, medical person, emergency medical services person or other authorized person, engaged in the person's duties at the scene of a fire, accident, disaster, riot or emergency of any kind;

(2) Fail to obey the lawful order of any law enforcement officer engaged in the law enforcement officer's duties at the scene of or in connection with a fire, accident, disaster, riot or emergency of any kind. (i.e. If an officer orders you to help him.)

(b) Whoever violates this section is guilty of misconduct at an emergency, misconduct at an emergency is a misdemeanor of the fourth degree. If a violation of this section creates a risk of physical harm to persons or property, misconduct at an emergency is a misdemeanor of the first degree.


Guys, laws or no laws, I would greatly appreciate any help you can render me if I were in need of help out there. Even if all you do is call 911. Hell, I'll even but ya a beer (or root beer).

p.s. Former Ohio State football tailback Maurice Clarett, who was charged with ORC 2921.13 misdemeanor 1 falsification, for lying on a police report, pleaded guilty in 2004 to the lesser charge of ORC 2921.23 failure to aid a law enforcement officer.

[dan_sayers]

While I'm a big proponent of forethought, there's little to be accomplished in outlining a checklist you'll have for if you'll step in or not. As with anything else, you're going to go with whatever feels right at that moment. I ask each of you at that moment to do exactly that. I've tasted the unrest that is caused in having to stifle your own instinct for the sake of the consequences. That's the real crime.

[LaserLee]

Just wondering.. I have a car that HAS a locking glovebox.. and a locking CONSOLE lid.. I wonder if the locked console is legal.. any opinions here?

Lee

[Sky Pilot]

Getting back to the original post: have we an update?

[SMMAssociates]

Just wondering.. I have a car that HAS a locking glovebox.. and a locking CONSOLE lid.. I wonder if the locked console is legal.. any opinions here?

IANAL, but I doubt if anybody would question the console as a "steal-me" box as the law defines it. (Which it doesn't. Just says "locked in plain sight'.)

Just make sure it's locked if you're stopped and the gun is in there.

Regards,

[BEAR!]

Just wondering.. I have a car that HAS a locking glovebox.. and a locking CONSOLE lid.. I wonder if the locked console is legal.. any opinions here?

Lee

Laser Lee;
I was told by my instuctor that a console WAS NOT legal, as it isn't specified in the pamphlet. But if you'd like to be the test case to get this area of the law clarified have at it.

[Brian D.]

Just wondering.. I have a car that HAS a locking glovebox.. and a locking CONSOLE lid.. I wonder if the locked console is legal.. any opinions here?

Lee

Laser Lee;
I was told by my instuctor that a console WAS NOT legal, as it isn't specified in the pamphlet. But if you'd like to be the test case to get this area of the law clarified have at it.

Thanks Bear, I almost chimed in with a response earlier in the day, based purely on common sense, that would have told Laser Lee otherwise. Glad my inner "Don't be reckless, chowderhead" voice told me to wait a while. Man we got lotsa crapola in this law to take to the dumpster don't we?