HB 228: Stand your ground + other changes

[Bruenor]

Another terrific [/sarc] editorial from the Cleveland Plain dealer. HB 228 should be vetoed because it expands preemption.
https://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index ... ohios.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Gov. John Kasich should still veto Amended Substitute House Bill 228, the gun law awaiting his action, because of the way it broadens the state's ability to pre-empt local gun regulations and further erodes Ohio communities' home rule rights.

The law adds a prohibition against "any ordinance, rule, regulation, resolution, practice, or other action or any threat of citation, prosecution, or other legal process" to the list of ways in which localities could be found in violation of state law in trying to regulate gun ownership, sales, storage or transport. It also opens the door far wider to expensive civil claims against any municipality that adopts such rules or practices.

At least they make mention of their outright LIE from their last editorial on the subject.

But one of the reasons we cited for opposing the bill in an editorial this week was erroneous: While HB 228 if enacted would shift the burden of proof in Ohio to prosecutors when self-defense is claimed, that would not make Ohio an outlier among the 50 states. Quite the reverse: Ohio appears to be the only state that still hews to old common law standards by putting the burden on defendants who raise affirmative self-defense claims to show by a preponderance of the evidence that they were acting in self-defense.

At a minimum, this portion of the bill is not as we characterized it, for which we are deeply sorry.

You're not sorry about the error, you're sorry you got called out on it.

[M-Quigley]

But one of the reasons we cited for opposing the bill in an editorial this week was erroneous: While HB 228 if enacted would shift the burden of proof in Ohio to prosecutors when self-defense is claimed, that would not make Ohio an outlier among the 50 states. Quite the reverse: Ohio appears to be the only state that still hews to old common law standards by putting the burden on defendants who raise affirmative self-defense claims to show by a preponderance of the evidence that they were acting in self-defense.

At a minimum, this portion of the bill is not as we characterized it, for which we are deeply sorry.

You're not sorry about the error, you're sorry you got called out on it.

While any news organization can make simple mistakes, this particular issue has been well known by gun rights supporters, LE, prosecutors, defense attorneys, etc., for a long time. Even any basic research into this issue would've uncovered it. If they are going to make this big of an "error", why should anyone listen to them on anything else they have to say on the subject?

New statement from Kasich r/t this thread.

Joking that he could be known as “Veto Corleone” by the time he’s done, Kasich said, “I have no joy in having to veto stuff, but I’m not going to sign stuff that I don’t agree with in a deep way. If you think I’m going to sign a bill that gives more power to the gun folks, are you kidding me?”

Sitting on his desk now is House Bill 228, a gun rights bill that would shift the burden of proof in self-defense cases from the shooter to the prosecutor. Kasich’s 10-day window to sign, veto or let the bill go into law without signature closes on Tuesday.

The bill is dramatically scaled back from its original version, which would have given armed Ohioans the right to stand their ground and use deadly force in public places, rather than face a duty to retreat. Even without that provision, Kasich said, “This bill is still a terrible bill.”

Lawmakers planned voting days for Tuesday and Wednesday for possible veto overrides, which require 60 votes in the House and 20 in the Senate.

https://www.whio.com/news/kasich-promis ... m4BYIB79K/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[schmieg]

Actually, I hope he does veto it with the mess it has become with long guns and I hope the legislature lets it go. While I do like the deletion of the affirmative defense, there is too much danger from the long gun issue. We need to start over in January.

[bignflnut]

New statement from Kasich r/t this thread.

Joking that he could be known as “Veto Corleone” by the time he’s done, Kasich said, “I have no joy in having to veto stuff, but I’m not going to sign stuff that I don’t agree with in a deep way. If you think I’m going to sign a bill that gives more power to the gun folks, are you kidding me?”

https://www.whio.com/news/kasich-promis ... m4BYIB79K/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is a great point!
How many people voted for this (insert pejorative moniker here) “Veto Corleone” as a candidate doing the math that any R is better than any D? How many gun groups insisted on encouraging their people to do the same? Do these voters wish they had abstained or voted for the D?

If pro-property rights pro-RKBA voters will sell their votes to a candidate like this and are not willing to see any R fail, their votes do not need to be valued / fought for. Their agenda will be a non-priority. We see this playing out locally and nationally. Even the NRA doesn't respect its own membership's agenda, having helped nullify RKBA whenever they can.

It's within any group's power to withdraw support from candidates, jeopardizing future campaigns. Perhaps voting for the opposition is too far, perhaps it would send the signal that the group agreed with the agenda of the enemy. But anyR > anyD is some new putrid math.

[JustaShooter]

New statement from Kasich r/t this thread.

Joking that he could be known as “Veto Corleone” by the time he’s done, Kasich said, “I have no joy in having to veto stuff, but I’m not going to sign stuff that I don’t agree with in a deep way. If you think I’m going to sign a bill that gives more power to the gun folks, are you kidding me?”

https://www.whio.com/news/kasich-promis ... m4BYIB79K/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is a great point!
How many people voted for this (insert pejorative moniker here) “Veto Corleone” as a candidate doing the math that any R is better than any D? How many gun groups insisted on encouraging their people to do the same? Do these voters wish they had abstained or voted for the D?

If pro-property rights pro-RKBA voters will sell their votes to a candidate like this and are not willing to see any R fail, their votes do not need to be valued / fought for. Their agenda will be a non-priority. We see this playing out locally and nationally. Even the NRA doesn't respect its own membership's agenda, having helped nullify RKBA whenever they can.

It's within any group's power to withdraw support from candidates, jeopardizing future campaigns. Perhaps voting for the opposition is too far, perhaps it would send the signal that the group agreed with the agenda of the enemy. But anyR > anyD is some new putrid math.

You are way off-base on this one. It's only been in the last two years that Kasich has weakened on conservative issues. Consider the following improvements to Ohio's gun laws that have happened under his terms in office:

HB495:
Eliminated the "demonstrated competency" requirement for second and future CHL renewals
Fixed the definition of a "loaded gun" to match the commonly accepted definition.
Allows law-abiding gun owners to have their firearms stored in their cars in the state-owned parking garages such as the one under the Statehouse.

SB17:
Allows persons with a CHL to carry in bars and restaurants that serve alcohol as long as they are drinking unless the business posts otherwise
Removed all restrictions on carrying in a motor vehicle by persons with a CHL

HB54:
Fixed Ohio's reestoration of firearm rights to be recognized by the Federal goernment

HB234:
Hunting with suppressors made legal.
Sheriffs required to sign Form 4 under the same process and fees as a CHL.
Improved reciprocity/recognition
Ohio CHL remains valid until expiration date for someone who moves out of state.
Non-residents working in Ohio may be issued an Ohio CHL.
Eligibility for a CHL is closely aligned with “allowed to own a gun under U.S. laws.”
All restorations of rights will now work for all gun rights.
Minor Misdemeanors are not a disqualifier for CHLs.
OPOTC training good for CHL, no expiration.
DD-214 valid for 10 years from issuance (was 6 years).
NICS compliant background check for CHLs
Training reduced from 12 to 8 hours, incl. 2 hours range time.
Classroom training can be done in person or online.
Instructors from any national gun advocacy organization now eligible to conduct training.
Sheriff may use CHL funds for other firearms-related training.
Attorney General to maintain Application Form (text of Application Form no longer in statute).
Correct definition of an “Automatic Firearm” (Deleted 31 round magazine rule).
Ability to purchase long guns in any state (was only allowed in bordering states).
Parking lot carry not municipal trespass (already not state trespass).
Buckeyes can carry on non-resident licenses, but only from states with written reciprocity agreements from substantially similar states.

SB199:
The Ohio Attorney General is to develop and post on the Attorney General's website a summary of Ohio firearm laws and concealed carry laws as they apply to military members in Ohio.
Ohio sheriffs may use concealed handgun license application fees to purchase firearms and ammunition for training for the sheriffs department.
Active-duty military members carrying a valid military ID and proof of equivalent small arms training may carry in Ohio without a concealed carry license with the same rights and privileges of Ohio concealed handgun license holders . Active-duty military is defined in 10 USC 101.
Modified Ohio's school safety zone exception for concealed handgun licensees to specify that the licensee may be on school premises for any reason as long as the handgun does not leave the vehicle. It further clarifies that if the person exits the vehicle, as long as the person leaves the handgun locked in the vehicle they are in compliance with the law. It should be noted that this exception continues to apply to handguns only. It does not apply to rifles or shotguns.
Specified that a concealed handgun licensee may be in the unsecured part of an airport while carrying.
Allowed colleges and universities to recognize concealed handgun licenses and allow concealed carry on their campus.
Removed daycare facilities from the list of places a concealed carry license is not valid. A private daycare could still prohibit concealed carry by posting a "no guns" sign.
Removed private aircraft from the list of places a concealed carry licensee may not carry a handgun.
Allowed government bodies to allow concealed carry in the governmental buildings under their authority.
Specified that public and private colleges and universities are immune from liability for the actions of the concealed carry licensee while carrying a handgun on their campus.
Provided that public and private employers may not adopt policies prohibiting, or having the effect of prohibiting, concealed carry licensees from having their handguns on their business property, so long as the gun is stored in a locked container, compartment or trunk. Note that this applies to all licensees having a handgun on the business property.
Allowed the sale of firearms to active duty military members without regard to their age. Previous law prohibited those under 21 from purchasing a handgun.

SB81:
Allows renewals any time before expiration
Provides for free licenses to veterans with equivalent training

I understand we didn't get everything we wanted while he's been in office, and he's been disappointing for the past two years. But does anyone *really* think that we would be better off today had Ohioans abstained or voted for another candidate?

[bignflnut]

You are way off-base on this one. It's only been in the last two years that Kasich has weakened on conservative issues. Consider the following improvements to Ohio's gun laws that have happened under his terms in office:

(Edited to cut list of laws/effects)

I understand we didn't get everything we wanted while he's been in office, and he's been disappointing for the past two years. But does anyone *really* think that we would be better off today had Ohioans abstained or voted for another candidate?

WAY off-base?
All the items you listed, and I appreciate you taking the time to list them, are not much more than some fine tuning and tweaking of previous failures/gaffes. Aside from hunting with silencers, everything else is somebody fixing what they did on a drunken bender the session before. This is leadership?

Where's the actual increase in RKBA? Where's the permit-less carry? Where's the CPZ reform? Are you resigned to the concept that we can only tinker with and play at the margins of the current idiotic framework? Is that the best we can do with a deep red Statehouse and this Rosie the Riveter Governor you want to defend? We're focused on weeding the herb garden instead of plowing the field for the harvest.

[bignflnut]

"If you think I’m going to sign a bill that gives more power to the babies are people folks, are you kidding me?”
Don'tcha wish he said that?

[JustaShooter]

You are way off-base on this one. It's only been in the last two years that Kasich has weakened on conservative issues. Consider the following improvements to Ohio's gun laws that have happened under his terms in office:

(Edited to cut list of laws/effects)

I understand we didn't get everything we wanted while he's been in office, and he's been disappointing for the past two years. But does anyone *really* think that we would be better off today had Ohioans abstained or voted for another candidate?

WAY off-base?
All the items you listed, and I appreciate you taking the time to list them, are not much more than some fine tuning and tweaking of previous failures/gaffes. Aside from hunting with silencers, everything else is somebody fixing what they did on a drunken bender the session before. This is leadership?

Where's the actual increase in RKBA? Where's the permit-less carry? Where's the CPZ reform? Are you resigned to the concept that we can only tinker with and play at the margins of the current idiotic framework? Is that the best we can do with a deep red Statehouse and this Rosie the Riveter Governor you want to defend? We're focused on weeding the herb garden instead of plowing the field for the harvest.

I submit, especially in light of the aftermath of HB228, that the problem isn't in the Governor's mansion.

[Chuck]

And I will submit that not everybody in this conversation is a part of "we"

[zeko]

Well, it's December 19 (one day past the period in which the Governor could veto HB228) and I haven't heard of him vetoing it . . . Does this mean it becomes law without his signature? Or did I miss the veto announcement?

Zeko

[JustaShooter]

Well, it's December 19 (one day past the period in which the Governor could veto HB228) and I haven't heard of him vetoing it . . . Does this mean it becomes law without his signature? Or did I miss the veto announcement?

Zeko

Today is the deadline - the bill was delivered to his desk on 12/7, and there were two Sundays in the interim that don't count toward the 10 days, which makes today, 12/19, the deadline. So he must veto it today or it becomes law without his signature.

[carmen fovozzo]

Lets hope he breaks both his hands...from a fall....and bumps his head....and has a one day case of amnesia...

[qmti]

The BFA website said that Kasich vetoed the bill this afternoon. Need to send emails/phone call to House/Senate leaders to override the veto. Get with it guys/gals.

[rickt]

Kasich's veto message:

https://governor.ohio.gov/Portals/0/pdf ... 228_v5.pdf

[bignflnut]

He calls for Red Flag EPRO laws (citing the NRA's support thereof), slams preemption, but remember, ya'all, I AM the problem and go GOP!