Thoughts on Red Dot Pistol Sights?

[Brian D.]

Seen lots of gadgets at SHOT shows. One year, it might have been Safariland that had come up with a holster which not only accommodated a small optic on the slide, but also knocked the cover off during the draw. (The dot came on when the cover, attached via lanyard, was popped out of the way.)

That would at least keep moisture and dirt from getting directly on the lens, although it wouldn't help with condensation. Also, the holster was a "race rig" meant for speed, not concealment.

It did strike me as the beginning of what could have been a line of useful new products, but I don't recall the thing getting past prototype. Sounds like a job for MWSY-TSiWRX Labs to work on.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

Seen lots of gadgets at SHOT shows. One year, it might have been Safariland that had come up with a holster which not only accommodated a small optic on the slide, but also knocked the cover off during the draw. (The dot came on when the cover, attached via lanyard, was popped out of the way.)

That would at least keep moisture and dirt from getting directly on the lens, although it wouldn't help with condensation. Also, the holster was a "race rig" meant for speed, not concealment.

It did strike me as the beginning of what could have been a line of useful new products, but I don't recall the thing getting past prototype. Sounds like a job for MWSY-TSiWRX Labs to work on.

Simple. Laser emitters mounted inside the hood with crossing beams to make a "holographic" dot. Then you wouldn't need the lens.

I'll let TSiWRX build the prototype.

[TSiWRX]

Being of Chinese descent, I favor cheap human labor over technological solutions.

I'll have the same trunk-monkey that loads my mags for me also wipe the optic down as I draw.

Seriously, though, this is really interesting. I've done a bit more searching online, and it seems that people as often as not report fogged RDSs on their carbines. Especially of police officers who store their duty long-guns in an in-cabin lockable mount, some say that they've nearly always had it fog-up upon the transition from inside to outside the vehicle, and some nearly never. No seeming pattern to it, either: pricey optics versus mid-grade, brands/models, etc.

I can't help but wonder maybe if their vehicle HVAC settings may contribute significantly to what type of experience they see.

And if that's the case, I also can't help but wonder how this would translate to the user of a EDC handgun with a mounted micro-RDS.

Certainly, it's sometimes baffled me why my eyeglasses will fog over, and other times, not, despite conditions which should have caused it.

I'd really love to hear/read some extended-use experience with the micro-RDSs in an EDC concealed-carry context. Would snow just hit the lens and melt because it's just come out of the holster? How much snow/rain/condensation, in-reality, is required to truly obscure the sight picture as to make it unusable? Given the BSA template, is this in-reality less of a worry than, say, battery maintenance?

This is a great detour you've led us on, MWSY.

[EChryst]

I've just started working with a Trijicon RM06 (3.5 MOA) on a Glock 19.

I chose to mount it on a Glock 19 over my Glock 17 for two main reasons.
1) It's my concealed carry gun
2) The "shorter sight radius" would benefit from having a red dot - and I use this reason tongue in cheek.

I went about this "project" in a few ways. First, I bought a spare Gen 3 Glock 19 slide. I've put a lot of work into the frame of my Glock 19 (removing finger grooves, stippling, undercutting) so if this didn't work out, I didn't want to be selling one of my "best guns." Worst case scenario? I'd sell the slide and red dot to someone else who wanted to "give it a try."

I purposely chose the adjustable LED over the dual-illuminated for the same reason Allen mentioned earlier - the issues other shooters I know personally have had with the optic "deciding" on the brightness required for the lighting you're standing in. I'd prefer to choose my own illumination. Adjusting the dot brightness generally adjusts the size as well.

In terms of snow/rain disrupting the lens, I can't speak too much about it. What I can say, is that this gun is concealed and has been shot in the elements from concealment. Therefore, I haven't had snow/rain accumulate on the lens in the holster and the time it's spent out of the holster is for the process of shooting the gun or performing manipulations. I haven't had any issues, but I haven't shot it in a monsoon or a blizzard. Yet.

Fogging happens when you go from cold to warm. Carrying the gun concealed provides me with a naturally warm environment so there is practically no transition in temperature. I'm sure if OC is your deal, than a anti-fog treatment like catcrap or fog tech may be the solution.

In terms of "finding the dot" - I think a LOT of the issues come from the users draw stroke. In a four count draw stroke, on count "3" I'm collecting the pistol with my weak hand high centered on my chest, almost at the top of my sternum and then continue to press out to the appropriate amount of extension. That naturally starts to provide a point where my sights are becoming aligned, probably a foot off my chest and I have a "decent" sight picture at 2-3 feet, finally settling with a standard sight picture at full extension. With a draw stroke that looks more like the general motion of an uppercut (going from holster to full extension) it may take you a bit to "find the dot."

Overall I'm a pretty big fan. It IS an expensive thing to "try" - at over 1,000 with red dot and machining. I don't feel like it is the final solution because the reciprocating slide still hammers away at the optic. But for me, I find that its easy to find the dot, a clear crisp sight picture and the ability to focus on the targets instead of the front sight.

[Mr. Glock]

Why did you choose the 3.5 over the 7.5 MOA? A lot of folks push the larger dot on a pistol (vs smaller on rifle)?

[EChryst]

Why did you choose the 3.5 over the 7.5 MOA? A lot of folks push the larger dot on a pistol (vs smaller on rifle)?

Based off of recommendations of accomplished shooters.

The advice I received:

"Both are good, and in certain situations you could say one is better. Smaller dot is nicer for distance work, however sometimes the bigger rounder one is easier on the eyes and doesn't requrie as much brightness to be seen. I haven't shot the 6moa one extensively, however I've been using the 3.5MOA dot for over 5 years and I like it. Most guys I know recomend the smaller MOA, however if you get the chance look through both (shoot them preferably, and see which you like better). I can tell you for certain though that I do NOT like the new 1MOA dots on handguns. To small and easy to loose, if turned up high enough to see it blooms a lot."

I'm able to "turn up" the dot and make it larger, but I find I can pick up the smaller dot no problem. But I still have young eyes.

If you want to give the 3.5 MOA dot a look or a shoot, let me know.

I know I didn't like the triangle that comes with the adjustable. I've spent a lot of time with dots and really like them.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

... some say that they've nearly always had it fog-up upon the transition from inside to outside the vehicle, and some nearly never. No seeming pattern to it ...

There's a pattern. They just may not see it.

It all depends on the dew point. But the dew point changes with temperature, humidity and atmospheric pressure.

If the environment has high temperature and high humidity, an item doesn't have to be very cold for condensation to form.

On an 80 degree day with 75% relative humidity outside, an optic that has cooled in a car to only 71 degrees will fog up when removed from the car. Heck, the air conditioning on my truck can get the temperature down to 65 degrees without any effort.

On that same 80 degree day, but with only 45% relative humidity, that optic wouldn't fog until it was chilled to 56 degrees or lower.

[TSiWRX]

^ Hey, I wasn't looking for actual science!

---

EChryst, that's a dumpster-load of excellent information, right there. Thank you. As I wrote above, I'm banking all this stuff for when I will eventually go down this route.

I think you hit a note with the draw-stroke being a problem with me. I'm still working on where I'm picking up a fuller sight-package as I'm cross-dominant: I'm quite a bit left-eyed, and as with most Asians who started school in their native lands a couple of decades ago, I'm also very, very strongly right-handed. When I come out of the holster, I don't instinctively push towards my left - and I think I should. I've actually always found shooting from more guarded positions a bit harder. Currently, I'm working on some pointers that D.R.Middlebrooks gave in terms of indexing the gun under my dominant eye even in compressed ready. It's a bit weird, but I'm getting used to it, and I think it should help me track the sights faster.

Perhaps with your insight and my current practice regimen, the next time I get to try a micro-RDS pistol, I'll have better luck.

[EChryst]

^ Hey, I wasn't looking for actual science!

---

EChryst, that's a dumpster-load of excellent information, right there. Thank you. As I wrote above, I'm banking all this stuff for when I will eventually go down this route.

I think you hit a note with the draw-stroke being a problem with me. I'm still working on where I'm picking up a fuller sight-package as I'm cross-dominant: I'm quite a bit left-eyed, and as with most Asians who started school in their native lands a couple of decades ago, I'm also very, very strongly right-handed. When I come out of the holster, I don't instinctively push towards my left - and I think I should. I've actually always found shooting from more guarded positions a bit harder. Currently, I'm working on some pointers that D.R.Middlebrooks gave in terms of indexing the gun under my dominant eye even in compressed ready. It's a bit weird, but I'm getting used to it, and I think it should help me track the sights faster.

Perhaps with your insight and my current practice regimen, the next time I get to try a micro-RDS pistol, I'll have better luck.

If you ever want to give my Glock 19 a spin, you know where to find me. I think a MRDS mounted pistol thats properly zeroed may solve a lot of cross eye dominant issues. Or at least negate them.

[TSiWRX]

^ I sure do know. Thank you for the offer.

I wish Friday nights weren't so crowded for me!

[HKJ]

I doubted the use of these at first also. Really took a push for me to switch. But, I do like it and have been running one for a few years on my Glock 19. They really shine on targets that are out further and for for precision. I feel the key for me was to just work on picking up my front sight like I usually would and ta dah - the dot was there.

Gabe recently developed a product that lessens the point of entry for people who want to try the concept. No milling etc. http://www.onesourcetactical.com/suarez ... vU3_E32aUk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

**Disclaimer - I work for Gabe on the training side of things. I do not profit from the gear side.

Also, anyone interested in giving mine a try, let me know.

[TSiWRX]

^ That looks considerably more appealing than the Dueck item. I like it that different front/rear sight combinations can be installed. I'll have to remember this one!

Thanks, HKJ (still need to make it out to one of your classes )!

[EChryst]

Raven Concealment has also come out with their "Balor" mounting system at SHOT for release next month:

http://rcsgear.com/balor/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[CCIman]

Trijicon always offered a mounting deck that mounts into the Glock rear sight dovetail, so You can mount a RM02 without milling.
Trijicon RM44 RMR Pistol Mount for All Glock Models

It gives only an approximation to the RDS experience, but adds an additional 1/8" (approx) height above the top of the slide on top of the 1/8" that the RDS would normally be inset into the milled slide. So almost 1/4" additional height over bore than a true milled slide RDS setup.

You would think 1/4" does not make a difference, but it does. (It did).

[EChryst]

Trijicon always offered a mounting deck that mounts into the Glock rear sight dovetail, so You can mount a RM02 without milling.
Trijicon RM44 RMR Pistol Mount for All Glock Models

It gives only an approximation to the RDS experience, but adds an additional 1/8" (approx) height above the top of the slide on top of the 1/8" that the RDS would normally be inset into the milled slide. So almost 1/4" additional height over bore than a true milled slide RDS setup.

You would think 1/4" does not make a difference, but it does. (It did).

It additionally eliminates the option to co-witness with suppressor height sights.