Question for vets, especially SpecOps veterans

[curmudgeon3]

ETA: If you're already shooting "sub-one inch groups at 300 yds.", just how good do you want to get ?

I had a single hole group at 300 yds, . . ., until I fired the second shot.

The one-holer shooters use a small remotely-controlled electric motor to index a roll of paper (after each shot) behind the bullseye on the target so they can verify the number of shots that went thru the one hole.

[ApexShootingTactics]

I have been busy lately and getting to this a bit late. The answer is 100% yes. I served in special operations and have been training with special operations for over a decade.

Being a great shooter is such a small part of what Special Operations do and try to achieve. People ask all the time about "advanced training" and I explain that there is no such thing as "advanced training" but there is advanced application of the fundamentals. The ability to apply the fundamentals to ANY situation is what makes the Special Operations community so successful. This doesn't just apply to the shooting aspect, it means they can apply the fundamentals of land navigation, patrolling, reconnaissance, maritime operations, medical, civil affairs etc....

Most Special Operations guys are not phenomenal shooters, most of them do not have time to become phenomenal. They are constantly working on other skill sets. The ones who are phenomenal shooters are dedicating extra (personal) time to the skill or they happen to be one of the units subject matter experts in the skill set. When you have a unit full of phenomenal shooters they happen to be the cream of the crop like CAG or DevGrp. Those guys are in the unit because they are exceptional at many skills and they have literally no budget for training in order to achieve and maintain those skills.

The thing most civilians can NOT do is become good/great at a large group of critical skills. That is what separates these two groups.

[carmen fovozzo]

I'm still trying to find one I'm decent at...

[JU-87]

This question is directed to veterans and pertains to marksmanship training:

Could a private citizen, with NO MILITARY EXPERIENCE, ever hope to attain the level of marksmanship that Seals or other SpecOps attain?

First, what level of marksmanship do SEALS/SpecOps have now?
My guess is everwhere from outstanding to embarrasing. I was a member of the 1st Ranger Battalion (1/75 INF. (RANGER) ) from 1983-85. The Army Basic Rifle Marksmanship traing was poor. My unit got invited to shoot with the USMC at Paris Island,SC. The Marines taught me to shoot a rifle. I had a SGT. E-5 who could not qualify. How's THAT for a "high-speed, low-drag" SpecOps guy?

With a 6mm rifle, 3-9x scope, I shoot sub 1-inch groups at 300 yards, and avg 96/100 in trap shooting with a 12-guage. Pistols are something for which I have recently developed a taste and am, therefore, still training.

I don't think 70% of Infantryman could do that.

I was just wondering if a civy has hope compared to our military.

Any hope? It sounds to me like you are ALREADY A BETTER MARKSMAN than 70% of SEALS/SpecOps. Why not go to Small Arms Firing School at Camp Perry (Port Clinton) Ohio?
http://thecmp.org/competitions/cmp-nati ... g-schools/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think a "Civy" team just beat ALL MILITARY TEAMS in the 2014 National Trophy Team Match "Rattle Battle"

CAMP PERRY, OH – On July 20, for only the third time in the event’s 92-year existence, a civilian team outshot the rest in the National Trophy Infantry Team (NTIT) match. Nicknamed the “Rattle Battle” for the quick strings of rapid fire the match demands, the NTIT hosts civilian, junior and military teams – requiring an astounding amount of concentration and comradery for success.

http://thecmp.org/civilian-teams-emerge ... eam-match/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Don't overestimate our Special Ops, or our Military. Please.

Best regards.

[ApexShootingTactics]

JU-87,
The military training and equipment pipeline is a roller coaster. During conflict the equipment is better and the training improves. During times of peace (aka budget cutbacks) everything suffers. You would be amazed at how much Ranger Batts have changed. I have worked with assaulters from 2nd Batt and numerous snipers from 1st and 3rd Batt, they are all competent shooters and the snipers are all top notch.

Don't overestimate our Special Ops, or our Military. Please.

That is pretty insulting. Today our Special Operation Forces are better than they ever have been. Technology, training and equipment have allowed our SOF to conduct raids and various operations with a level of success greater than any other time in history.

I have yet to have contact with any SOF member that merits being called "embarrassing" when it comes to marksmanship. Weapon proficiency level is extremely high in SOF community and to say anything different is just not an accurate statement.

[Mustang380gal]

The short answer to your question is 'yes'.....
The Marine Corps provides world-class instructors to teach recruits the art of grip, trigger-control, breathing-control, sight picture/point shooting, etc. Once that is ingrained into the mind of the recruit, then it's just a matter of long hours of snapping-in (dry-firing) and shooting. The more of that you do, the better you become. For a civilian, find yourself an experienced trainer for the fundamentals, absorb the training, and then all you need to do is the dry-firing work and lots of shooting until you become as good as you want to be. Have fun !

ETA: If you're already shooting "sub-one inch groups at 300 yds.", just how good do you want to get ?

The Appleseed Project teaches the same things. Appleseed instructors have taught active duty soldiers rifle marksmanship.

[Mustang380gal]

JU-87,
The military training and equipment pipeline is a roller coaster. During conflict the equipment is better and the training improves. During times of peace (aka budget cutbacks) everything suffers. You would be amazed at how much Ranger Batts have changed. I have worked with assaulters from 2nd Batt and numerous snipers from 1st and 3rd Batt, they are all competent shooters and the snipers are all top notch.

Don't overestimate our Special Ops, or our Military. Please.

That is pretty insulting. Today our Special Operation Forces are better than they ever have been. Technology, training and equipment have allowed our SOF to conduct raids and various operations with a level of success greater than any other time in history.

I have yet to have contact with any SOF member that merits being called "embarrassing" when it comes to marksmanship. Weapon proficiency level is extremely high in SOF community and to say anything different is just not an accurate statement.

I am an instructor with The Appleseed Project. At our shoots are often veterans of various ages, as well as current military.

I have seen freshly returning veterans who can barely hit paper, and never make a group in 500 rounds to vets who can easily achieve 230/250 on our course of Fire.

I have seen the same thing with LEO. Some are great. Some make me worry for thier safety.

Technology cannot fix know it all attitudes, or a resistance to learning like the poor military/LEO shooters I met.

[JU-87]

JU-87,
The military training and equipment pipeline is a roller coaster. During conflict the equipment is better and the training improves. During times of peace (aka budget cutbacks) everything suffers. You would be amazed at how much Ranger Batts have changed. I have worked with assaulters from 2nd Batt and numerous snipers from 1st and 3rd Batt, they are all competent shooters and the snipers are all top notch.

Don't overestimate our Special Ops, or our Military. Please.

That is pretty insulting. Today our Special Operation Forces are better than they ever have been. Technology, training and equipment have allowed our SOF to conduct raids and various operations with a level of success greater than any other time in history.

I have yet to have contact with any SOF member that merits being called "embarrassing" when it comes to marksmanship. Weapon proficiency level is extremely high in SOF community and to say anything different is just not an accurate statement.

You "worked with" some Rangers...I was one. The few " grade C-" ones are not going to shout that out to you. I did say levels are from outstanding down to embarrassing. My squad leader failed to qualify with a M16A1 rifle!

One of my former Ranger room mates comitted RAPE AND ATTEMPTED MURDER. MP's took him away. He flipped over on his accomplis, and ONLY got 10 years in Ft. Levenworth military prison...

If you, or anyone thinks everyone in Special Operations are "Sparten 300" movie warriors- you are very mistaken. They are people. They share some common charactoristics.
BUT,( I don't mean this to be funny), when off duty, MANY (most?) seek to obtain and consume alchohol ( and Pot, if there unit is "exempt" from drug testing) and female conpanmanship!

They are mostly not rapelling or dry-fire practicing.

I don't think my comments were "insulting" at all. They are TRUE.

Don't overestimate our Special ops or our Military.

Best regards

[MacDonald]

Thank you, everyone, for your input.

I am not a professional. I will not be clearing a room, nor hiking in the mountains for days and shooting 600+ yards away with a .50 caliber (perhaps hiking for a couple hours and shooting at that distance with small caliber if I am out west somewhere hunting prairie dogs, Pronghorn, or Elk). I am strictly speaking about plinking. Marksmanship with no one returning fire. Since I can not afford to shoot as extensively each day as if Uncle Sam was supplying the ammo fodder, I just wanted to know if I could ever come close to a professional. It was the kid in me, I guess, that posed this question.

I had heard again about the two Seals who took out some pirates a few years ago from the deck on a military ship. THAT marksmanship was very impressive, especially considering the ocean movement of sea going vessels. No one was shooting back then, and it was two Seals one shot one kill. I prefer shooting paper targets and animals of the four-legged variety.

[Mustang380gal]

www.appleseedinfo.org

You will learn the skills you need to shoot 25- 500 yards, 4 MOA or better. You may not end up a sniper, but you might end up a Rifleman.

[carmen fovozzo]

Just curious......Appleseed Rifleman is what equivalent in the Military ranking....?

[Mustang380gal]

I think expert, as best as I can tell. It is the test the Army used in WW1. The scores I found after googling seem to be based on 40; Appleseed is based on 250. 38-40 is expert, 210 and above is Rifleman. If it is done at distance--100, 200, 300 and 400 yards-- a 200 is needed. There are a few ranges where this is done.

[carmen fovozzo]

Thanks.

[Mustang380gal]

Am I gonna see you at a shoot this year, Carmen?

[ApexShootingTactics]

JU-87,

Sounds like you have an axe to grind. Every unit, every organization, neighborhood, sports team, business, church, community has their small population of undesirables. My first unit was FAST Company (Fleet Antiterrorism Security Team) and my first night with the unit a group of men were off duty, drunk and one Marine had a negligent discharge that killed a team mate. This was a horrible incident but it did not define us as a Unit. 1st SF Group had guy go off the deep end and murder his family a few years ago, this did not and does not define 1st SFG.

Yes, young soldiers get drunk and chase women. It is the culture and nature of young men and this will probably never change. We began with a question regarding marksmanship of SOF and civilians and now you are bashing everything about SOF. It is obvious you have an axe to grind. You were a Ranger in the mid 80's and I have worked with a trained dozens over the past decade. One of my good friends, Nicholas Irving is a former Ranger and 3rd Battalions most deadly sniper as detailed in his book, Team reaper. http://www.reaper33.com/bio/ Next to Rangers I have trained with dozens of AFSOC Operators many of them happen to be good friends. After that I have dozens of other professional contacts and friends who have or are still serving. I believe I have a better idea of the current abilities of our SOF units.

Your statements are most certainly insulting. They are based on your experiences from 30 years ago and you seem to be basing everything on the criminal actions of a few or the inability of a few.