A no guns sign doesn't carry the force of law according to lawyer on BFA podcast???

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M-Quigley
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A no guns sign doesn't carry the force of law according to lawyer on BFA podcast???

Post by M-Quigley »

Recently I d/l a podcast of Keep and bear radio, a podcast by the Buckeye Firearms Association, where a lawyer named Sean Mahoney of 2nd call defense was asked about a victim disarmament (no guns) signs at approx. 23:45 in the podcast. Maybe I heard him wrong, but I thought he said this as an answer:
Well, it's a civil penalty & it's one that the business has to bring against you, essentially for trespass. It doesn't have the force of law.
and
There's no criminal, it doesn't have the force of law, they have the right to trespass you and sue you civilly.
He then started talking about parking lots but the law specifically says that carrying in a parking lot is not criminal trespass, already knew that.

Thanks to the BFA I learned something new. I was under the false impression that they did carry the force of law in Ohio, a 4th degree misdemeanor with a possible maximum of 30 days in jail and $250 fine. Granted, I haven't researched it and don't know of anyone actually charged related to a private business, but that's not really the point. I was under the impression it was actually illegal criminally if it was clearly posted. I know the law says "knowingly" but if it's clearly posted on the front door I really don't want to have to defend not knowing in a court of law.

Maybe I heard him wrong or misunderstood him, but here's the link.

https://keepandbearradio.podbean.com/e/ ... o-gun-law/

Is his advice correct?
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Re: A no guns sign doesn't carry the force of law according to lawyer on BFA podcast???

Post by JustaShooter »

He's wrong. See ORC 2923.126(C)(3)(a). https://codes.ohio.gov/ohio-revised-cod ... n-2923.126

I've heard him get Ohio firearm/concealed carry law wrong on more than one occasion. Baffles me how he's held up as the be-all and end-all of Ohio gun rights attorneys by some folks.
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Re: A no guns sign doesn't carry the force of law according to lawyer on BFA podcast???

Post by JustaShooter »

Oh, and "knowingly" doesn't mean you can turn a blind eye to signs and be good by saying "I didn't see no sign" either. If a reasonable person would have seen it, you are expected to - and, a reasonable person knows that signs have the force of law in Ohio, and thus knows he must check for conspicuous signage when entering buildings.
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Re: A no guns sign doesn't carry the force of law according to lawyer on BFA podcast???

Post by M-Quigley »

JustaShooter wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:28 pm Oh, and "knowingly" doesn't mean you can turn a blind eye to signs and be good by saying "I didn't see no sign" either. If a reasonable person would have seen it, you are expected to - and, a reasonable person knows that signs have the force of law in Ohio, and thus knows he must check for conspicuous signage when entering buildings.
I guess you heard that part of his answer also, I "forgot" to mention that in the OP. (sarcasm) :)

I'm not a lawyer but I think his advice about if you happen to go into a clearly marked victim disarmament zone and then "forgetting" is a worse defense to the accusation than saying you didn't see it. In order to "forget it" you clearly must've saw it before you went in and chose to go in anyway.

OTOH, there might be legitimate circumstances where you might not actually see a ghostbuster sticker going in. For just one example, I was entering a business once and a guy was standing at the inside of the door with it open and letting a bunch of people in who were going in, me being one of them. There was no way for anyone going in to see what stickers or decals were on the door, not even from behind, as he was standing on the inside of the door. I had previously been to that business and there never was a ghostbuster sign before.

I didn't know however the new manager was anti gun and thought (wrongly) that gave her the right to stick a ghostbuster sign on the door without consulting the owner. One phone call to the owner and she found out that she was mistaken about that last part and the decal is now gone. :)
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Re: A no guns sign doesn't carry the force of law according to lawyer on BFA podcast???

Post by M-Quigley »

JustaShooter wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 9:23 pm He's wrong. See ORC 2923.126(C)(3)(a). https://codes.ohio.gov/ohio-revised-cod ... n-2923.126

I've heard him get Ohio firearm/concealed carry law wrong on more than one occasion. Baffles me how he's held up as the be-all and end-all of Ohio gun rights attorneys by some folks.
I thought so but not being a lawyer I wanted a second opinion. :) When I said
"Thanks to the BFA I learned something new. I was under the false impression that they did carry the force of law in Ohio" I was being a little sarcastic.

What's a little concerning to me besides the fact that he's giving out wrong information that could potentially get someone arrested is this guy claims to be the co founder of 2nd call defense, a group that you're supposed to rely on should you get arrested for a alleged gun related crime. Doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling paying for their alleged protection when the co founder can get something simple like this wrong.Shouldn't an attorney know more about the law than the client?

Someone here locally said to me, when I played that part of the podcast for him, said, "If this guy is the co founder then whose the founder, his cousin named Vinnie?" :roll:
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Re: A no guns sign doesn't carry the force of law according to lawyer on BFA podcast???

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The stench of those guys makes me happy I quit.
I'm watching Chris Dorr trying to get SAPA passed and watching republicans offering this little can-carry-in-courthouses-under-very-certain-conditions bill and know that BFA is in the backroom agreeing to the crumbs, and I am happy to not be worrying about it this year
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Re: A no guns sign doesn't carry the force of law according to lawyer on BFA podcast???

Post by M-Quigley »

UPDATE: I saw a US law shield table and asked the guy selling the insurance (he is not a lawyer but said he is a CCW instructor) the question about is going into a private business building where there is a no guns sign posted, does it carry the force of law, and he said no. He claimed all they can do is tell you to leave, and if you refuse to leave, you can then be arrested for criminal trespass. :?: Maybe I'm wrong but that applies to just trespassing someone in general, gun or not. He claimed it used to be a criminal offense if you entered but the law was changed a few years ago and that they have to warn you to leave first. :?: If there was a change to the ORC I wasn't aware of it.

the US law shield site says no guns signs at business are enforceable.

https://www.uslawshield.com/3-gun-law-myths-ohio/

When I said something to him about banks, and how 5th 3rd has a no guns sign but my bank doesn't, he then claimed all banks that are insured by the FDIC are no gun zones. :?: Not only is he wrong about that, the US law shield website says that he was wrong about that also. :roll:

https://www.uslawshield.com/ohio-bank-carry-myths/

In addition,

Finally, a deputy friend of mine, when I told him what this guy said, said the guy is wrong, and in his opinion it's scary that he's instructing people. :(
He said if you read the ORC it says absolutely nothing in there about how you must be warned to leave first before they arrest you. If you knowingly violate the no guns sign and if it is conspicuously posted, you could be subject to arrest if the police are called. You've already been warned in effect by the sign and the fact that you're carrying a loaded firearm. I looked up the relevant section of the ORC and it appears he is correct.

I happen to know of at least one business that if they see someone with a gun they won't themselves tell the person to leave, they will call the law and let them handle it, for their employees safety. Granted, some in LE might not want to arrest someone over this but if the business wants it they could potentially do it. The deputy said what I already suspected, if you had to warn the person first, it would be just like Indiana, where it doesn't carry the force of law.

I told him about the guy said about banks and the FDIC and he said he's heard that also, from some banks, but like me he knows of banks without no guns signs, and thinks the banks with no gun signs, (Like 5th3rd) just tell their customers that if asked to take the heat off of them, claiming the government is making them do it. :roll: He is of the opinion, like me, that if 5th 3rd had allowed licensed customers to carry concealed in Cincinnati the mass shooting there might've been stopped sooner than it was.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Cincinnati_shooting

So the bottom line is, I can't say US law shield is possibly giving out bad advice, just maybe one of their salespeople, who is allegedly is a CCW instructor also. :roll:
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Re: A no guns sign doesn't carry the force of law according to lawyer on BFA podcast???

Post by JustaShooter »

M-Quigley wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:21 pm Finally, a deputy friend of mine, when I told him what this guy said, said the guy is wrong, and in his opinion it's scary that he's instructing people. :(
I agree wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, I see this with instructors all the time. These two items and a couple more are the top of the hit parade of incorrect guidance given out by instructors.
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Re: A no guns sign doesn't carry the force of law according to lawyer on BFA podcast???

Post by Brian D. »

The "no guns in banks because federal law" thing refuses to die. I'm convinced all employees are told that by their bigwig bosses, some of whom probably took it as accurate from what predecessors told them.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

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Re: A no guns sign doesn't carry the force of law according to lawyer on BFA podcast???

Post by Klingon00 »

M-Quigley wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:21 pm I happen to know of at least one business that if they see someone with a gun they won't themselves tell the person to leave, they will call the law and let them handle it, for their employees safety.
A local community social media group that discusses crime and neighbors behaving badly had a story posted about a member trying to confront a shoplifter at Kroger's (Henderson Rd, in Columbus).

The shoplifter had an entire cart full of groceries and when they were confronted by the customer in the parking lot, they threatened the good Samaritan with being shot by a concealed gun (none were actually presented) and the good Samaritan backed off and went back into the store to complain to the manager.

The manager was uninterested in doing anything about it, says it happens regularly and that upper management doesn't even want the police involved, stating they have insurance to cover the losses.

If I hadn't stopped shopping there years ago I certainly wouldn't now. Those costs probably get passed on to the customers.

Anyway, all that to say YMMV in how such things get enforced. It seems many companies prefer putting out the welcome mat to criminals yet want to keep law abiding gun owners out.
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Re: A no guns sign doesn't carry the force of law according to lawyer on BFA podcast???

Post by M-Quigley »

Klingon00 wrote: Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:19 pm
M-Quigley wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:21 pm I happen to know of at least one business that if they see someone with a gun they won't themselves tell the person to leave, they will call the law and let them handle it, for their employees safety.
A local community social media group that discusses crime and neighbors behaving badly had a story posted about a member trying to confront a shoplifter at Kroger's (Henderson Rd, in Columbus).

The shoplifter had an entire cart full of groceries and when they were confronted by the customer in the parking lot, they threatened the good Samaritan with being shot by a concealed gun (none were actually presented) and the good Samaritan backed off and went back into the store to complain to the manager.

The manager was uninterested in doing anything about it, says it happens regularly and that upper management doesn't even want the police involved, stating they have insurance to cover the losses.

If I hadn't stopped shopping there years ago I certainly wouldn't now. Those costs probably get passed on to the customers.

Anyway, all that to say YMMV in how such things get enforced. It seems many companies prefer putting out the welcome mat to criminals yet want to keep law abiding gun owners out.
Not implying the good Samaritan did anything wrong, I just wouldn't have personally confronted the guy myself. I'm not the store security and I'm not going to risk having to defend myself for the stores property. If they don't care why should I risk my neck, and possibly my freedom if I get prosecuted.

At least Krogers and Walmart and Meijers, (the big three where I live) hasn't yet caved to the Moms demand action anti self defense group and banned lawful concealed carry yet, thank goodness. If I have to defend myself and my family I still have the ability to do so.

Funny thing about store policies r/t theft, they don't seem to be consistent from one corporate store to another. There was a story a few years ago about a Walmart, (I think in SW Ohio because I heard it covered by a Cincy TV station) about a guy who just casually walked out with a big screen TV in a shopping cart and not stopped. Since he got away with it the first time he did it again on a different day. The third time they had people (IDK if security or police) waiting for him and stopped him. I heard one of the relatives of the suspect blamed Walmart for their lax security procedures the first time he did it, like it was their fault the guy tried it 2 more times since he had previously gotten away with it. :roll:

OTOH, the Walmart nearest to where I live has off duty armed LE working store security and they regularly stop shoplifters. Real shoplifters though, they haven't had any issues like the Walmart reported in headline only of the link below.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/01/us/w ... wsuit.html
Woman Who Sued Walmart Over Shoplifting Arrest Is Awarded $2.1 Million

Lesleigh Nurse said she was wrongfully accused of stealing groceries from the Walmart in Semmes, Ala., in 2016. The retailer said it would contest the verdict.
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