Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

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Bearable
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by Bearable »

xpd54 wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:39 pm
Bearable wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 12:40 pm That would be a great point except xpd54 is incorrect. He doesn't understand statutory construction. Both 2923.122 and 2923.123 are supplemental sections of 2923.12.
The Revised Code is divided into titles, chapters, sections, and supplemental sections.
Each subdivision of the Revised Code indicates increasing specificity regarding the topic addressed. For example, Title 29 of the Revised Code addresses Crimes-Procedure law generally, and each chapter and its sections provide increasing levels of detail.
You can determine the title, chapter, and section (and, if relevant, supplemental section) of the Revised Code from the number:
R.C. 2923.12 → Title 29, Chapter 23, Section 12
R.C. 2923,122 → Title 29, Chapter 23, Section 12, and Supplemental Section 2.

See: https://www.lsc.ohio.gov/assets/organiz ... s-2023.pdf

That is why part (H) is under 2923.12
In the grand scheme of things, my opinion means nothing. But the following people/organizations also disagree with you:

The Attorney General and his Ohio Peace Officer Training Commission staff attorneys who created the lesson plan I use when I teach topic 2-2O (weapon offenses) in the basic police academy:

Page 44 “Deadly weapon” and “weapon,” for purposes of R.C. 2923.12, does not include any knife, razor, or cutting instrument if the instrument was not used as a weapon.

No other offenses are mentioned.

Page 58 (regarding deadly weapons in schools since they don’t cover courts & 2923.123, but the same principle applies):
“Interpretation of elements: The offense (2923.122) prohibits taking any deadly weapon, not just a firearm (e.g., knives, brass knuckles), onto school premises, which include the following…..”

There is nothing in the lesson plan that says it has to be used as a weapon for this to apply.

And on page 198, they give a scenario where the cadets are supposed to figure out what charge is appropriate. One of the portions of the scenario deals with a car full of bad guys on a school parking lot. One of the turds has a switchblade in his sock. It wasn’t used as a weapon. Just mere possession. The answer key says that said turd could be charged with 2923.122(B) for being in possession of a deadly weapon (the knife) in a school safety zone.

The staff at the Ohio Legislative Service Commission who did this analysis also appear to disagree with you:
The act excludes knives, razors, and cutting instruments that were not used as weapons from the definition of “deadly weapon” for purposes of the offense of “carrying concealed weapons” and consequently excludes them from the continuing law prohibition against carrying a concealed deadly weapon.
“…for purposes of the offense (singular) of CCW”. Not for anything else.

Available here:
https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/downlo ... format=pdf

The folks at the American Knife and Tool Institute who helped get the law passed: https://www.akti.org/state-knife-laws/ohio/

And finally -

The prosecutors who I deal with on a regular basis and who I’ve reviewed cases like this with.
You did not provide a link to lesson plan 2-20. This would not be the first time to find a paid for lesson plan to be wrong. I provided you with the structure of the statutes. And I know that many attorneys have no clue as to how the law is actually structured.

As to the OHIO LEGISLATIVE SERVICE COMMISSION; it is outdated and points to statues of which parts have been repealed. Even so, it doesn't even address schools and courthouses.

Also, American Knife and Tool Institute link is out dated and does not even address 2923.122 or 2923.123. It is of no value.

I didn't give you some attorney's opinion. I gave you the structure of our statutes.

That's what is great about this country, you get to believe whatever you want.
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by Bearable »

Let’s have a little lesson.

2923.11(A) - Definitions: (A) "Deadly weapon" means any instrument, device, or thing capable of inflicting death, and designed or specially adapted for use as a weapon, or possessed, carried, or used as a weapon.

There is two parts to the definition. (1) It has to be an “instrument, device, or thing capable of inflicting death.” A pencil or a pocket knife can fall into that category. And (2) “it has to be designed or specially adapted for use as a weapon, or possessed, carried, or used as a weapon. A pencil and a pocket knife can be used as a weapon.”

2923.12(A)(1) says that “No person shall knowingly carry or have, concealed on the person's person or concealed ready at hand, any of the following:
(1) A deadly weapon other than a handgun;

A pencil or a pocket knife could fall into this prohibition. A prosecutor could prosecute a person for carrying a concealed pencil. But would a jury buy it? No, they wouldn’t. A prosecutor could prosecute a person for carrying a concealed pocket knife. But would a jury buy it? Yes, they would because the jury would/could believe the pocket knife was designed to be carried as a weapon. That is why 2923.12(H) exists. The mere fact that you have a pocket knife in your pocket does not make it a deadly weapon or a crime.

2923.122(A) “No person shall knowingly convey, or attempt to convey, a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance into a school safety zone.” Is a pencil or pocket knife a deadly weapon? Nope. Nothing to prosecute.

2923.123 (A) “No person shall knowingly convey or attempt to convey a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance into a courthouse or into another building or structure in which a courtroom is located.” Is a pencil or pocket knife a deadly weapon? Nope. Nothing to prosecute.

2923.122 and 2923.123 are subsections of 2923.12; that is why 2923.12(H) is not listed in 2923.11. Also, 2923.12(H) is not a definition. It is an instruction to the executive branch and judicial branch that the mere possession of a pocket knife make it a deadly weapon.

Could a school have a policy against having a pocket knife in school? Yes. But could the person be criminally prosecuted as a crime? No.

Could a court prosecute you for contempt of court? Yes, but I would bet they would not.

I was willing to push that issue, but the court was not going to give me that win. You are excused from jury duty.
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by Bearable »

Bearable wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:00 pm
2923.122 and 2923.123 are subsections of 2923.12; that is why 2923.12(H) is not listed in 2923.11. Also, 2923.12(H) is not a definition. It is an instruction to the executive branch and judicial branch that the mere possession of a pocket knife does not make it a deadly weapon.
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by BB62 »

There's always more to learn, and while NOT trying to get between xpd54 and Bearable, let me state a few things I've learned after a number of years of activism, observation, and sometimes contact or conflict with law enforcement and/or the judicial system (directly or indirectly)...

1) I respect and appreciate "cites to authority".

2) The average cop has a very shallow understanding (and sometimes virtually none) of a broad range of subjects.

3) Activists who "know" the law sometimes thoroughly understand the construction and text of the law, and may even know precedence.

4) "The system" is biased against those who challenge authority, regardless of how legally correct they may be. It may cost time & treasure to receive justice, it might not happen at all, or might only happen after substantial expenditures of both time and treasure.

5) Many judges don't know the law or care about the law - their biases or their desire to see a desired end achieved can override everything else.

6) The phrase "You may beat the rap, but you might not beat the ride" is very true.

I greatly respect knowledgeable activists whose approach is planned and measured, rather than blunt and insulting. In my humble opinion, we need more of such people - effective change agents & ambassadors, not as$****s.

Regardless of who a court of law might favor, I like Bearable's approach with the "justice" system, I'm glad he "won" this round, and I appreciate both his and xpd54's approach here as well as their cites to authority.

I'm glad these forums still exist, and that's my 2 cents.
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M-Quigley
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by M-Quigley »

I know this is probably a silly question, but with all the discussion of entering a court, what is legally a weapon or not, what would happen if someone wanted to enter the court with a boxcutter or crowbar or a baseball bat or a claw hammer on a belt? After all, they're not "weapons" unless used as one.

The point I'm trying to make is although carrying any of the items on the street might not constitute carry a weapon, does that automatically mean the court has to allow you in with it?
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by Bearable »

M-Quigley wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 6:58 pm I know this is probably a silly question, but with all the discussion of entering a court, what is legally a weapon or not, what would happen if someone wanted to enter the court with a boxcutter or crowbar or a baseball bat or a claw hammer on a belt? After all, they're not "weapons" unless used as one.

The point I'm trying to make is although carrying any of the items on the street might not constitute carry a weapon, does that automatically mean the court has to allow you in with it?
There in lies the problem. A service person walks into the court with a toolbelt and toolbox and informs whoever at the metal detector that he is there see John Doe in the boiler room for a boiler problem. All those tools you describe is in possession of service person. Whoever calls John Doe, but informs the service person he cannot bring in any of the tools, except the boxcutter, because the law does not exempt those tools from being in the category of not being deadly weapons. In effect, to a hammer everything is a nail.

What the court is saying is you do NOT have any rights when you enter the courthouse except the privileges they allow you to have.

I speak from experience.
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by Brian D. »

I have managed to get through the Hamilton County courthouse with a TDI walking cane a couple of times. For those not familiar, the curved handle is solid aluminum with a bevel point at the top end. Looks and feels like a pry bar. The bottom three feet or so of the cane shaft is tubular aluminum.

The deputies put it through the X-ray machine and gave it back, but they were not thrilled to do so. I was ready to discuss the finer points of the Americans With Disabilities Act with them, although I don't have any sort of doctor's note for the cane. I was there one time to pick up concealed carry booklets, the other occasion to pay a parking ticket* issued downtown. There are scurrilous characters going in and out of that building regularly, and I hate being disarmed between there and my vehicle.

*No, Bearable, I didn't take the parking ticket to court. We can't all be 24/7/365.25 activists on every issue. They had me dead to rights.
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by M-Quigley »

Bearable wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:06 pm
M-Quigley wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 6:58 pm I know this is probably a silly question, but with all the discussion of entering a court, what is legally a weapon or not, what would happen if someone wanted to enter the court with a boxcutter or crowbar or a baseball bat or a claw hammer on a belt? After all, they're not "weapons" unless used as one.

The point I'm trying to make is although carrying any of the items on the street might not constitute carry a weapon, does that automatically mean the court has to allow you in with it?
There in lies the problem. A service person walks into the court with a toolbelt and toolbox and informs whoever at the metal detector that he is there see John Doe in the boiler room for a boiler problem. All those tools you describe is in possession of service person. Whoever calls John Doe, but informs the service person he cannot bring in any of the tools, except the boxcutter, because the law does not exempt those tools from being in the category of not being deadly weapons. In effect, to a hammer everything is a nail.

What the court is saying is you do NOT have any rights when you enter the courthouse except the privileges they allow you to have.

I speak from experience.
If someone in the court system calls a service person there to repair an issue then it is common sense that tools might be required. If for example this
same service person has a jury duty notice, does that mean they should be allowed into the courtroom itself wearing a toolbelt, and with various tools hanging from that belt?
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by Bearable »

Brian D. wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:05 am ...

The deputies put it through the X-ray machine and gave it back, but they were not thrilled to do so. I was ready to discuss the finer points of the Americans With Disabilities Act with them, although I don't have any sort of doctor's note for the cane. I was there one time to pick up concealed carry booklets, the other occasion to pay a parking ticket* issued downtown. There are scurrilous characters going in and out of that building regularly, and I hate being disarmed between there and my vehicle.
Per the Americans With Disabilities Act:
42 USC § 12102(3)(A) An individual meets the requirement of ‘‘being regarded as having such an impairment’’ if the individual establishes that he or she has been subjected to an action prohibited under this chapter because of an actual or perceived physical or mental impairment whether or not the impairment limits or is perceived to limit a major life activity.

"Perceived physical" impairment. You don't need a doctor's note.
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High Power
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by High Power »

When some people speak of "constitutional carry," they are not really referring to pure "constitutional carry."

Ohio does not require any license to carry a HANDGUN concealed or openly. So it's "constitutional carry" for handguns only.

If it were really a pure "constitutional carry" state, we could carry any weapon without restriction.
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by JustaShooter »

High Power wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:40 pm When some people speak of "constitutional carry," they are not really referring to pure "constitutional carry."

Ohio does not require any license to carry a HANDGUN concealed or openly. So it's "constitutional carry" for handguns only.

If it were really a pure "constitutional carry" state, we could carry any weapon without restriction.
Correct. Ohio has a restrictive version of unlicensed carry for handguns, not what I'd call "constitutional carry", but it is the popular term for almost anything providing unlicensed concealed carry of a handgun. And I've not looked into it, but I doubt any states have true constitutional carry. Even Vermont has some restrictions.
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by Bearable »

M-Quigley wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 9:04 am
Bearable wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:06 pm
M-Quigley wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 6:58 pm I know this is probably a silly question, but with all the discussion of entering a court, what is legally a weapon or not, what would happen if someone wanted to enter the court with a boxcutter or crowbar or a baseball bat or a claw hammer on a belt? After all, they're not "weapons" unless used as one.

The point I'm trying to make is although carrying any of the items on the street might not constitute carry a weapon, does that automatically mean the court has to allow you in with it?
There in lies the problem. A service person walks into the court with a toolbelt and toolbox and informs whoever at the metal detector that he is there see John Doe in the boiler room for a boiler problem. All those tools you describe is in possession of service person. Whoever calls John Doe, but informs the service person he cannot bring in any of the tools, except the boxcutter, because the law does not exempt those tools from being in the category of not being deadly weapons. In effect, to a hammer everything is a nail.

What the court is saying is you do NOT have any rights when you enter the courthouse except the privileges they allow you to have.

I speak from experience.
If someone in the court system calls a service person there to repair an issue then it is common sense that tools might be required. If for example this
same service person has a jury duty notice, does that mean they should be allowed into the courtroom itself wearing a toolbelt, and with various tools hanging from that belt?
Look, the courts are inherently corrupt. On occasion you will find an outlier judge that actually believes in their oath of office and the rule of law.

The courts believe in one thing, justice; just-us, not you, just them. And the only justice you have is the justice you bring yourself. I’ve been around the court system for many years and have had many battles in the courts, including behind the scene involvement in other court cases. I would say I’ve been successful 99% of the time. I was prosecuted for 20 months for open carry and acquitted of the charge.

I went after a corrupt judge in Washington Courthouse all the way up to the Ohio Supreme Court. The Supreme Court rubber stamped his illegal act, but the result was the case before that corrupt judge was dismissed. I accomplished my goal.

Yes, I’m the exception to the rule. I have been lucky to have the time to deal with these issues and fight battles. Don’t get me wrong, there are a few attorneys and originations that are very good at what they do. And I capitalize on their successes.

But with all that said, for the average person the court is a meat grinder and it will grind you up in a blink of an eye. You have to be as ruthless as they are and know their dirty tricks, and the average person doesn’t see it coming. And by the way, believing an attorney is going to fight your battle, you have another thinking coming.

This is all done to control you, scare you into compliance with their illegal commands.

So, in the big scheme of things the carrying of a pocket knife into the court is a poke in their eye. A rain-drop doesn’t amount to much of anything, but thousands of rain-drops moves buildings.
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by Glock Rock »

Boy that escalated quickly. Who doesn't love a Code debate? :)

Comparing Oklahoma to Ohio isn't quite as extreme as comparing Florida to California politically, but it's apples and oranges.

Ohio is almost one of the 13 colonies and heavily influenced by Connecticut (north) and Virginia (south). State #17

Oklahoma was pretty much was (is?) "The Wild West" and became state #46 in late 1907, 104 years after Ohio.

Lots of history for both states from very different influences which survive to today.

Think we can agree both states are vastly superior to the politically blue states. 8)
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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by Glock Rock »

So can I carry an automatic out-the-front knife in Oho now? I have a heckuva Microtech collection!

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Re: Shocked at differences between Ohio and Oklahoma

Post by JustaShooter »

Glock Rock wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:39 am So can I carry an automatic out-the-front knife in Oho now? I have a heckuva Microtech collection!
That's how I understand the law, yes. Nice collection, BTW.
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