Regardless of whether the shooting was justified or not, it's pretty dumb for somebody to indulge in ostensible police work with none of the legal protections that go with it, ESPECIALLY when there's no immediate danger to life and limb.
It's not the job of the police to protect the life and limb of individuals.
It's definitely the job of the police to investigate crimes and make arrests. Why do their job for them without the (sometimes unfair) protections which they enjoy?
Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
Moderators: Chuck, Mustang380gal, Coordinators, Moderators
- deanimator
- Posts: 7863
- Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:34 pm
- Location: Rocky River
Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
Life comes at you fast. Be prepared to shoot it in the head when it does.
-
- Volunteer
- Posts: 8135
- Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:14 pm
- Location: Under Naybob Tinfoil Bridge
- Contact:
Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
Respectfully, and I realize I'm on my own island here, THIS is the problem.deanimator wrote: It's definitely the job of the police to investigate crimes and make arrests. Why do their job for them without the (sometimes unfair) protections which they enjoy?
We've outsourced our responsibility to govern ourselves via the militia that is necessary to the Free State.
The only constitutional way for us to regain our freedoms, and we should do this right quick before elections get counted, is via the rebirth of the citizen militia. So much of our society would get a better education, better community cohesion, better financing, etc...
Our county sheriffs and commissioners are going to lead us to reclaiming the mantle of "the land of the free and the home of the brave", or not.
If we didn't just witness Government over Man....I don't know what to call it.Part One. The “covid-19” panic has exposed a basic discontinuity of government in the effective disestablishment of “the Militia of the several States”.
Part Two. A discontinuity of government through a military take-over has been threatened because of the “covid-19” crisis.
Part Three. The “covid-19” panic has rationalized a discontinuity of government through the seizure of supreme power by public-health “technocrats” in league with rogue public officials.
Part Four.. In large measure, the blame for these three discontinuities of government can be laid at the feet of the proponents of “the individual right to keep and bear arms”.
Part Five. Americans should reimpose true continuity of government by revitalizing “the Militia of the several States”.
“It’s not that we don’t have enough scoundrels to curse; it’s that we don’t have enough good men to curse them.”–G.K. Chesterton-Illustrated London News, 3-14-1908
Republicans.Hate.You. See2020.
"Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams to Mass Militia 10-11-1798
Republicans.Hate.You. See2020.
"Avarice, ambition, revenge and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams to Mass Militia 10-11-1798
- Klingon00
- Posts: 3825
- Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:47 am
- Location: Columbus, OH
Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
For me personally, there simply isn't enough evidence so far presented for me to yet judge either way on this. The video doesn't show clearly who initiated violence and I can see a plausible argument that either one could have initiated it. I also see a lot of the media and social sites attempting to poison the well, both for and against murder charges which isn't helping people maintain any kind of objectivity in this case. Just some thoughts:
- * Did racism play a role? Maybe but I haven't yet seen any evidence of it. Still waiting.
* Should the McMichaels have been playing law enforcement? Well I think that while this question clearly reminds many of us of the Zimmerman trial, we have to remember that this question did not play a factor in the result of that trial, and I don't believe it will play one here. They weren't doing anything particularly illegal (except maybe violate some traffic laws) in being where they where before the shooting occurred. Remember, they aren't being charged with attempting to make an unlawful arrest. Tactically, is it the best idea? Well as we can clearly see here and in the Zimmerman case what can happen, even with a somewhat positive outcome for GZ. I'll leave it to others to decide for yourselves if that's worth the risk.
* Was Arbery guilty of crimes of theft that justifies his being shot? Maybe he committed thefts, maybe not. Is it really relevant in the courtroom? I guess it does in the court of public opinion. I'm not versed in Georgia law, but I suspect that theft isn't justification for deadly force alone.
- catfish86
- OFCC Patron Member
- Posts: 2571
- Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:44 pm
Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
Klingon, I will say that the evidence is undisputed that he did not steal anything from the site. It has also become clear that a lot of different people were wandering around this site that were trespassing.
Another thing that is clear is that the police in the area have a long and sordid reputation in a number of different incidents.
Another thing to be learned is when you are involved in an incident like this, drawing attention to yourself is a bad idea.
Another thing that is clear is that the police in the area have a long and sordid reputation in a number of different incidents.
Another thing to be learned is when you are involved in an incident like this, drawing attention to yourself is a bad idea.
God,
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.
Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.
Gun control is racist.
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.
Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.
Gun control is racist.
- DOA33
- OFCC Patron Member
- Posts: 1165
- Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:46 am
- Location: 40601
Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
They're saying in the police report that McMichaels said, Roddie tried to involve himself by blocking Arbery with his car. So far no evidence saying he did or didn't just the testimony of one of the McMichaels.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/ahmaud-arber ... ony-murder" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.foxnews.com/us/ahmaud-arber ... ony-murder" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
William "Roddie" Bryan Jr., the man who recorded the deadly February shooting of Georgia jogger Ahmaud Arbery, has been arrested on charges of felony murder and criminal attempt to commit false imprisonment, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation [GBI] announced Thursday night.
Open Carry, shhh it's a dirty secret.
-
- Posts: 4796
- Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:06 pm
- Location: Western Ohio
Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
The man who took the video of the shooting is charged.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/man-filmed-sh ... d=70820910" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://abcnews.go.com/US/man-filmed-sh ... d=70820910" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Georgia Bureau of Investigation on Thursday said it arrested William "Roddie" Bryan Jr., 50, on charges of felony murder and criminal attempt to commit false imprisonment.
Bryan took the viral cellphone footage depicting the chase and killing of Arbery, 25, on Feb. 23 in Glynn County.
The lawyer for the guy saidBryan will be booked into the Glynn County Jail, GBI said. An initial police report noted Bryan tried unsuccessfully to block Arbery, who was jogging in the neighborhood when confronted.
The 28-second video showed Arbery jogging as Travis McMichael, 34, stood outside of a white pickup truck armed with a shotgun and Gregory McMichael, 64, a former police officer, stood in the truck's open flatbed trunk holding a. 357 magnum.
The video shows Arbery and Travis McMichael tussling with the shotgun before three shots are fired. Arbery stumbled and fell to the ground, where he was pronounced dead.
On Monday, Gough also said that Bryan was unarmed at the time of the shooting and "was not in communication with Gregory or Travis McMichael, or anyone else, during that timeframe."
-
- Posts: 4796
- Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:06 pm
- Location: Western Ohio
Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
bodycam video of the deceased and and a past interaction with law enforcement.
TMZ's statement about the use of a taser and the lack of him having a weapon misses the point of the purpose of a taser. A taser is not a substitute for a gun if the suspect has a gun.
https://www.tmz.com/2020/05/18/ahmaud-a ... mcmichael/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
TMZ's statement about the use of a taser and the lack of him having a weapon misses the point of the purpose of a taser. A taser is not a substitute for a gun if the suspect has a gun.
https://www.tmz.com/2020/05/18/ahmaud-a ... mcmichael/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- catfish86
- OFCC Patron Member
- Posts: 2571
- Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:44 pm
Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
Watching that video from TMZ I first note that it is choppy and only a select portion of the video.
From what I could gather, he was parked in the grass at a park alone. When approached by a police officer he got out of the vehicle and refused to consent to a search of the vehicle, which is his right. The officer became agitated and Aubery became agitated. At a certain point, he needs to learn to say "Am I free to go" rather than "why are you Fing with me" but he does have a point. The officer's reply "this is an area known for drug use" does not give police free license to search at will.
The officer that tazed him had no cause to do so other than the guy refused to consent to a search and was getting {inappropriate language} off at what he saw as harrassment.
What is also interesting is that the police department had told people in the neighborhood to contact the elder McMichael to investigate, effectively making him an agent of the police, despite the fact that his powers of arrest had been stripped due to failure to follow protocol for continuing education. So is he then, stripped of his powers of arrest, still able to make a citizens arrest, even assuming it was warranted, which it was not. A trespass is not a felony. The belief has to be reasonable that Aubery had JUST committed a felony and was fleeing. That dog just won't hunt.
From what I could gather, he was parked in the grass at a park alone. When approached by a police officer he got out of the vehicle and refused to consent to a search of the vehicle, which is his right. The officer became agitated and Aubery became agitated. At a certain point, he needs to learn to say "Am I free to go" rather than "why are you Fing with me" but he does have a point. The officer's reply "this is an area known for drug use" does not give police free license to search at will.
The officer that tazed him had no cause to do so other than the guy refused to consent to a search and was getting {inappropriate language} off at what he saw as harrassment.
What is also interesting is that the police department had told people in the neighborhood to contact the elder McMichael to investigate, effectively making him an agent of the police, despite the fact that his powers of arrest had been stripped due to failure to follow protocol for continuing education. So is he then, stripped of his powers of arrest, still able to make a citizens arrest, even assuming it was warranted, which it was not. A trespass is not a felony. The belief has to be reasonable that Aubery had JUST committed a felony and was fleeing. That dog just won't hunt.
God,
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.
Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.
Gun control is racist.
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.
Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.
Gun control is racist.
- Bruenor
- Posts: 7306
- Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:03 pm
- Location: Geneva, OH
Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution : verdict
Ahmaud Arbery case: Jury finds McMichaels, Bryan guilty on felony murder charges
https://www.foxnews.com/live-news/ahmau ... -wednesday" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.foxnews.com/live-news/ahmau ... -wednesday" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Jurors in Brunswick, Georgia, on Wednesday found Travis McMichael and his father Greg McMichael guilty on all counts, according to Judge Timothy Walmsley.
Jurors found Travis McMichael guilty of malice murder, four counts of felony murder, two counts of aggravated assault, false imprisonment and criminal attempt to commit a felony.
The jury also found Greg McMichael guilty of four counts of felony murder, two counts of aggravated assault, false imprisonment and criminal attempt to commit a felony. Jurors found him not guilty on charges of malice murder.
Finally, the jury found the McMichaels' neighbor, William "Roddie" Bryan, guilty of felony murder and aggravated assault.
The McMichaels and Bryan were facing nine counts each.
Μολὼν λαβέ
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
- Thomas Paine
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem."
- Thomas Jefferson
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
- Thomas Paine
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem."
- Thomas Jefferson
-
- OFCC Member
- Posts: 7481
- Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:53 pm
- Location: Sandusky County
Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
The jury got it right, just like in Kyle Rittenhouse's trial. When the facts are given to the court and jury instead of through the media, a good decision can be made.
But what would we do without the razor-sharp political wit of our celebrities and sports figures?
But what would we do without the razor-sharp political wit of our celebrities and sports figures?
Famous last words: "I just drank What?!-Socrates
bruh bruh is slang for "complete and total moron" -sodbuster95
The following is a list of children's books that didn't quite make it to the printing press...
1. What Is That Dog Doing to That Other Dog?
2. Daddy Drinks Because You Cry
3. You Were An Accident
4. Bi-Curious George
bruh bruh is slang for "complete and total moron" -sodbuster95
The following is a list of children's books that didn't quite make it to the printing press...
1. What Is That Dog Doing to That Other Dog?
2. Daddy Drinks Because You Cry
3. You Were An Accident
4. Bi-Curious George
-
- OFCC Patron Member
- Posts: 192
- Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2016 4:36 pm
- Location: NE Ohio
Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution : verdict
If you murder one person, how are you guilty of four counts of felony murder?Bruenor wrote:Jurors found Travis McMichael guilty of malice murder, four counts of felony murder, ...
- FormerNavy
- Posts: 2343
- Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:19 pm
- Location: Southwest Ohio
Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution : verdict
pk47 wrote:If you murder one person, how are you guilty of four counts of felony murder?Bruenor wrote:Jurors found Travis McMichael guilty of malice murder, four counts of felony murder, ...
Probably the same way that you can be guilty of multiple counts of OVI for a single instance... you have general OVI... then OVI under the influence of prescription meds... and you'll get charged (and possibly convicted) of both. My guess is that there are different variations that are codified so they charged them with each. The sentences would normally run concurrently for something like that... not that it matters in this case.
- schmieg
- OFCC Coordinator
- Posts: 5757
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:11 pm
- Location: Madeira, Ohio
Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution : verdict
Usually, unless there is a major difference in the elements of the multiple offenses, the convictions are merged and sentencing is done accordingly.FormerNavy wrote:pk47 wrote: If you murder one person, how are you guilty of four counts of felony murder?
Probably the same way that you can be guilty of multiple counts of OVI for a single instance... you have general OVI... then OVI under the influence of prescription meds... and you'll get charged (and possibly convicted) of both. My guess is that there are different variations that are codified so they charged them with each. The sentences would normally run concurrently for something like that... not that it matters in this case.
-- Mike
"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand
"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand
- catfish86
- OFCC Patron Member
- Posts: 2571
- Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:44 pm
Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
I will say this: In the Rittenhouse and the Arbery trials the judges allowed the proceedings to be televised. VERY important for the public to understand and accept the verdicts. At the last minute the judge in the trial of the training officer who tazed a fleeing suspect with her Glock changed course and allowed cameras in that courtroom. I had suspected both verdicts from previous evidence but the viewing of the evidence clarified both. I was on the fence about Bryan (the video guy) but turns out he was a full participant in the hunt and bumped him with his truck which brought in the felony murder he was convicted of.
In this case, I truly believe it was a lynch mob of racists. Them being racists is not a crime but acting on it by killing a man is. I am happy that a backwater Georgia mostly white jury convicted all three.
In this case, I truly believe it was a lynch mob of racists. Them being racists is not a crime but acting on it by killing a man is. I am happy that a backwater Georgia mostly white jury convicted all three.
God,
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.
Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.
Gun control is racist.
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.
Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.
Gun control is racist.
- Bruenor
- Posts: 7306
- Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:03 pm
- Location: Geneva, OH
Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
Additional hate crime sentencing applied..
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... death.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... death.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
father and son were given an extra life sentence for the murder of black jogger Ahmaud Arbery Monday - while their neighbor who filmed it was handed an extra 35 years.
Travis McMichael, 36, and his dad Greg, 66, were slapped with an additional life term in jail by a federal court after being convicted of hate crimes over the February 2020 slaying of 25 year-old Arbery in Brunswick, Georgia.
Their neighbor William Roddy Bryan, who filmed the outrage, was handed an extra 35 years.
All three are already serving life sentences - the McMichael's without the possibility of parole - after being convicted by a Georgia state court in January.
Μολὼν λαβέ
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
- Thomas Paine
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem."
- Thomas Jefferson
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
- Thomas Paine
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem."
- Thomas Jefferson