Looking for My First Handgun...

[JustaShooter]

As far as holsters go, if you like hybrid IWB holsters there is a local company that makes a really good one - Hidden Hybrid Holsters in Canton South. Nice step up from a Crossbreed, and worlds better than Alien Gear.

If we manage to get together and shoot I have a couple of them you could check out, one for my XDs and one for the Shield.

[TSiWRX]

I really appreciate you taking the time to post a lot about the gear and other factors that go into concealed carrying.

No thanks needed - I'm just glad to help.

My questions to you are...

A) What's the best gear you've found? I know about Alien and Blackhawk. There's a place in Canton I've heard about too.

I'm a confessed geardo, but even so, that question is still compromised by two factors:

(1) I only know what I know - and there's PLENTY of good gear that either I do not own and thus have not had extensive experience with or that I simply am ignorant of their existence. Of that latter, I'm not even kidding, LegoGlock is always texting me about his latest and greatest gear find, and half the time, I'm like, "oh, yeah, you're just now finding out about that? " but the other half of the time, I'm, like, "dude, THANKS! I've never seen that before! "

(2) My "best" is subjective to my perceived needs and wants. What works great for me may work just as well, better, or a lot worse for you, based on how/what you dress, your anatomy, your perceived comfort, and your perceived need for concealment and retention versus accessibility. I can tell you what gear I have and what I like or dislike about each (and I'll do a very generalized summary of this, below, taking off in-part on both NavyChief and MyWifeSaidYes's reply to you), but whether or not that will apply to you is dependent on, well, you/u].

There's a very good list of a lot of great gear-makers here, hosted by Kaluban Cloak (who are pretty darned good, themselves, as Kydex folders go):

http://www.kcloakusa.com/kydex-holster-makers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

B) Should I carry on my hip or on my back? I'd prefer not to stick anything in the front of my pants, for obvious reasons.

Small of back carry may conceal better but most feel its disadvantages outweigh that. Harder to access, more possibility of sweeping yourself and others. (The gun must travel in a wider arc.) Worst downside is if you happen to fall and land flat on your back. Spinal injuries have occurred.

Think of your beltline as a clock. 12 o'clock is the buckle, 3 o'clock your right hip, 6 o'clock your spine line, etc. The majority of right handers tend to belt carry someplace between 2 and 5. There are small numbers of "appendix" (1 o'clock) toters out there and they will make a strong argument for that. They (hopefully) come to that after much consideration and practice of the technique. I don't think it's the way to go for inexperienced carriers.

Brian D. explained the (s)mall (o)f (b)ack ("SOB") concerns very thoroughly. Depending on your unique body-type as well as your subjective perception of comfort and concealment wants, though, who knows, it may work well for you - as with the other extreme, that of appendix or inguinal carry (often referred to as "AIWB" - for "appendix, inside-the-waistband"), there are some very specific compromises that one must be aware of.

To-add, if you choose to shoulder, ankle, appendix/inguinal or SOB carry, know that many/most open-enrollment training classes will -NOT- allow you to do so due to safety concerns (for the other students on the line). Typically, to really "train" in these skills, you'll need to book private lessons and/or the instructor/school may request that you demonstrate proficiency before you're allowed to use such a setup on a live-fire line.

Excellent advice on the carrying position. I definitely like the idea of carrying at 2-4 o'clock. Just need to find a gun that will accommodate those positions while also not looking like a pointy tumor on my body.

In terms of positioning the gun on the body, the variables are as-follows (in no particular order):

- clocking
- cant
- ride depth/height

For each consideration, you'll be seeking the balance between concealment, accessibility/retention, and comfort. To complicate matters, both the gun as well as the gear will impact all three of these factors....and that's even before you factor in wardrobe.

Hey Chief, tell KMay how big you are. It's not that hard to conceal with the right gear and clothing choices.

Good point. I'm 5'4" and while my weight varies a little, I average around 135-140.

Carrying a gun involves some "lifestyle choices." You'll have to - in many cases - decide what's more important: Protection of self and loved ones, or "lookin' good." Interestingly, us smaller guys can typically conceal easier than big guys. Why? We can (generally) wear a little looser fitting shirts without anyone thinking anything about it. So if you're willing to dress a little more - casually - you can pull off carrying pretty much anything.

I definitely agree with the "dress to the gun" ideal, but I will caution that, for some, that's indeed an ideal, and as ideals go, it's sometimes hard, if not impossible, to live up to or live with in real-life.

I'm not saying this with any malice or condescension, please understand. Rather, I'm simply trying to point out that for those with specific dress considerations such as uniforms (official or just "dress code"), for example, it's an ideal that can be very hard or even impossible to achieve.

Personally, I came into the gun world as well as concealed carry quite late in life - 5 years ago, when I was 36.

Everyone who's seen me in person knows that I dress the same way, every day (well, unless there's an occasion and I have to, as my wife says, "dress like a person" or, worse yet, "dress like an adult!") - a cheap black T-shirt over cheap blue-jeans. At the point I came into concealed carry, I'd been dressing that way for nearly a decade.

For me to suddenly have changed the way I dressed, I would have had a lot more explaining to do to my friends and family. So instead of going that route, I decided to instead compromise with my chosen carry handgun, my carry gear, and how I carry. Certainly, while this was not my only consideration (the other was just how deeply I wanted to conceal), it did factor into my decisions.

I'd love to be able to "dress to the gun." But for me, it would have raised more red flags in my life than I was - and still am - willing to bear.

I just wanted to throw out there that while this is certainly an excellent goal to strive towards, the lack of any one particular person to be able to achieve this ideal should not be seen as some sort of moral failing or character flaw: that, instead, it's just a part of "the concealed carry lifestyle" compromises any one of us have to sort through for ourselves.

Have you tried on a leather or leather hybrid IWB (Inside the WaistBand) holster with ANY gun yet?

Until you have, you won't realize just how much a mid-sized gun can be snugged against your torso and be effectively concealed.

So I wrote above that I'm shy to give specifics, but that I would be more than happy to give you some generalized pointers.

Here goes:

IWB versus OWB - (o)utside the (w)aist(b)and - is often the primary split in the decision tree for concealed carriers. Some just can't bear, comfort wise, to have that holster be on the inside of the pants. While IWB can conceal better than OWB, the truth is that OWB holsters specifically designed for concealment will typically work very, very well, even if all you have to drape over it is a looser-fitting un-tucked shirt. Unfortunately, to achieve that level of concealment, most OWB concealment holster will ride "high and tight" to the shooter's waistline (which on smaller individuals can even present some discomfort to their rib cage) - to get that muzzle up and under the hem of the cover garment, so you are somewhat restricted in terms of absolute ride-height, and this will typically also require that the shooter's shoulder, elbow, and wrist articulation be reasonable. Adjustable ride-heights as well as cants (the angle of the muzzle with respect to plumb vertical [perpendicular to ground], which, of-course, affects the angle at which the grip presents to your hand - this is most easily conceptualized by making a "finger gun" with the thumb and index finger of your dominant hand and then pretending to holster it at your waistside...from there, with the "gun" at your waist, sweep it back and forth along your waistline from the 12-o'clock to the 6-o'clock, and take note of the angles at which your wrist "breaks" naturally and how that affects both your grip as well as the direction in which the "muzzle" points) can to some extent help effect a slightly lower ride-height and/or help with joint articulation limitations, but this may require additional hem length of the cover garment.

"Dropping" (lowering the gun with respect to the beltline) and "offsetting" (pushing the gun away from the body - which will allow you a more certain dominant grip on the gun as you reach to and as you grab and draw it from the holster) an OWB holster farther down will allow for a more natural/efficient - and thus, for most, a considerably faster - draw stroke (as well as will, in most cases, clear modern load-bearing gear and armor), but it is virtually impossible to conceal such a piece of gear for the exception of winter parkas, trenchcoats, or the like. Even the cut of a sport or suit-jacket, to say the least of their fit, particularly of modern trends, will not drop down far enough to reasonably cover the gun.

IWB, of-course, you will have virtually no offset, and it also provides for a "tight" fit to the body. This typically aids in concealment, but carries implications in terms of accessibility in much the same way that a "high and tight" OWB holster would (that you'd have to get your thumb between the gun and your body, along with the joint articulation concerns), but the inside the pants placement will also allow for a bit more freedom in terms of ride height. Here, however, because of the waistband being on the outside of the holster, that ride height adjustment has a finite limit: drop the gun too low, and you're literally going to be fishing it out with your thumb...and that's definitely not going to help, in terms of speed. [ Note that there are specialty holsters such as the PagerPal or UrbanCarry, etc., which will drop the entire gun below the beltline - depending on design, these holsters may require an extra draw motion and/or two hands to complete the draw motion and/or may be completely inaccessible while seated and/or may be impossible to re-holster into. ] Both pants tension as well as belt tension have the potential to drastically affect the retention and draw of an IWB holster - remember the mouth of the holster will receive tension from these overlying factors in addition to the retention that's already molded in to the holster itself.

Some IWB holsters can also facilitate wearing tucked-in shirts, via various "tuckable" belt mounts (the belt mount is offset with respect to the body of the holster, thus allowing cover shirt material to insert between it and the holster body - your gun and holster are thus covered by the overlaying concealment garment, which you will clear during your draw-stroke regardless, while only the belt mount remains visible), which can further enhance concealment (depending on where you place the holster and both the holster's bulk and that of the gun's, however, some experimentation is necessary to prevent that bulk from appearing tumor-like, below-the-waist, which is now quite visible to observers, thanks to the fact that your shirt is tucked in! ).

Various belt mounting methods, from loops that go around the belt to various types of clips ("C" clips which show only a small part of itself above and below the belt; "J" clips which only hook the belt during the draw, but transfers the weight of the holstered weapon to the beltline of the actual pants/shorts themselves; VELCRO or adhesive-backed clips that mate to the inside of the belt so as to present virtually no visual signature to an outside observer, all can further help an IWB setup be even less visible.

Typically, dual-belt-mount holsters are more stable as they present two main contact points. Their stability is also increased by the fact that they are also typically "wider" - of larger footprint - than their single-clip counterparts. Being able to spread the weight of itself and the gun it contains more evenly, over a larger footprint, also tends to help with perceived comfort. On the minus side? It's fussier to set up, and often considerably harder (or impossible) to "just shove inside your pants/shorts" when you're re-arming, say, while seated inside your vehicle after having visited a forbidden area. Also, its physical size may not be compatible with some physically smaller users - what covers a quarter of my 38-inch waist will wrap nearly all the way around, for example, my daughter's virtually nonexistent waist (so what that she's only 10 and barely 75 lbs, it's still a funny sight to imagine! ). Nevertheless, that real-estate can offer smaller shooters unique possibilities, such as the ability to co-locate a magazine pouch on the holster's wider base - which can potentially allow for easy access of the magazine with either hand.

Single-mount holsters will shift around a bit more. This is not necessarily a complete minus, though, as sometimes all that's needed to achieve an extra degree of comfort while seated or kneeling or in other such positions is just the displacement of the muzzle or the grip by a few degrees from its normal orientation. Also, these holsters tend to be considerably easier to don than a two-clip setup, making them particularly nice in the in-vehicle re-arming example I gave above. A potential concern, however, is that the belt mounting method often thus rides directly over the body of the holstered weapon, and thus will slightly raise the profile of the holster. An offset clip - where the belt mount is offset from the body of the holster itself - can eliminate this concern and may even offer a degree of increased stability (as now the holster again has two contact points - even if the body is only via friction), but this will come in-trade of both real-estate (as the clip has moved off the body of the holster) and it may be slightly harder to install the holster in compromised conditions such as that in-vehicle setting.

In terms of material, the best thing about Kydex and other thermoplastics is their durability and their resistance to deformation caused by the rigors of everyday carry. Especially if you favor removing the gun from the holster for entry into forbidden areas - i.e. wearing an empty holster - holsters made of these materials are much better at resisting the deformation and "closing" of the mouth than even the best leather holsters - even reinforced - can provide. While some feel that "hard plastic" close to their skin is uncomfortable and thus shun IWB use of these types of holsters, others do not share this view: most IWB holsters of this type are specifically designed so that they do not present "hot spots" of pressure/chafing during everyday wear.

"Hybrid" holsters combine the comfort of either synthetic soft backing or a leather soft backing to a hardshell half made of Kydex or other thermoplastics. Typically, for those preferring a "softer" interface, hybrid holsters make for a great choice, but depending on make/model, they may be compromised in terms of retention when the holster is removed from one's body, and over time, the leather/synthetic cloth portion will wear just like any other holster that's made of that material - when new, hybrid holsters tend to present a very nice "open mouth" for easy re-holstering, but as they age, the leather/synthetic textile can stretch and soften, thereby closing or narrowing this area, and I would suggest that one regard their durability as that of a full leather/synthetic textile holster below.

Full leather or synthetic textile holsters are often chosen by users for their perceived comfort. Material deformation is the biggest weak-point of these holsters, and while a good one will last you many, many years, it's typically not going to be as durable as a full hardshell polymer holster.

Finally (excepting, of-course, pocket holsters), there are "minimalist" concealment holsters which simply cover the trigger guard. The MIC, Raven Concealment Vanguard/II, Armordillo X-Fer, etc., are all excellent offerings of this type. These holsters will typically require the user to use two hands to re-holster, if not the outright removal of the holster from the waist prior to re-holstering.

I know that I've probably skipped over a bunch of stuff. My apologies, as this is truly an off-the-cuff post. For more/better information, I would recommend our own painiac's excellent holster/concealment guide here:

http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=59295" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

- as well as Stephen P. Wenger's DUP "Holster Selection" page:

http://www.spw-duf.info/holster.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yet another super-awesome resource is BuckyP's "Diary of a Holster Junkie" thread on GlockTalk - http://www.glocktalk.com/threads/diary- ... e.1522065/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - what's awesome is not only that he has all of these, but that he offers his own take on the holsters, based on his extensive experience.

I have not tried many holsters. I was always of the belief that I should find a gun first then match the holster to the gun. I will definitely looking at different holsters from here on out to see if anything makes it easier to conceal.

Unfortunately, it's a two-way street.

And the other consideration as some have pointed out is that while a certain firearm can be your ideal carry/concealment piece, there could most unfortunately simply be a dearth of available support gear for it.

Holsters are the most obvious, but other considerations include things like readily available factory or aftermarket parts, and can even be as subtle as whether or not technical knowledge and support is readily available within the community (obviating the need/expense/trouble to return the product to the manufacturer or even to have professional repairs effected).

[KMayUSA6060]

[quote="TSiWRX"][/quote]

Wow. Helluvan explanation on everything. Everyone's comments have been very helpful but that post goes into incredible detail. The more I hear and research the Shield, the more I'm leaning towards that. As previously mentioned, my goal is to go to a range next week and shoot a Shield. I haven't found anything comparable in the price range or even cheaper. The reviews speak for themselves.

I've found out that with the Shield comes a lot of variability in gear and aftermarket parts. I like that. KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid.

I need to look into OWB and IWB, to see way fits me best. The one thing I've gathered from my firearms training and comments from others: you can never be too confident and comfortable with a carry gun as long as you still respect its dangers.

God Bless you, yours, and America.

[Brian D.]

Wow. Helluvan explanation on everything. Everyone's comments have been very helpful but that post goes into incredible detail. The more I hear and research the Shield, the more I'm leaning towards that. As previously mentioned, my goal is to go to a range next week and shoot a Shield. I haven't found anything comparable in the price range or even cheaper. The reviews speak for themselves.

I've found out that with the Shield comes a lot of variability in gear and aftermarket parts. I like that. KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid.

I need to look into OWB and IWB, to see way fits me best. The one thing I've gathered from my firearms training and comments from others: you can never be too confident and comfortable with a carry gun as long as you still respect its dangers.

God Bless you, yours, and America.

Back in say October/November it seemed like gun shops were in a price war (the good kind) with regards to the Shield. They dropped down to about $325 + tax from a couple of show vendors who also have stores. I think S&W had just caught up on production, had a glut of that model ready to ship, and the deals were ON. But even now they haven't gone back up anywhere near the introductory prices, which were north of $450. Good old supply/demand at work.

I don't own a Shield but have a couple of the Compact models around. They are all available with or without manual safety. For clarity's sake I prefer without, although on the full and Compact versions the safety paddles are easy to use and not in my way. In my limited experience with shooting a couple of Shields**, I didn't like the smaller, harder to access safety on that model. So were I to own a Shield it would definitely be the "without" variant.

I do not mention this to sway you either way, it's just a user-chooseable option that gun gives you.

By the way, don't feed Allen's ego, sometimes we have to get the vaudeville hook and drag him off the stage.


**It's great to find a group of friends to shoot with regularly. Everybody gets to try out each other's newest firearms acquisitions. Took me 15 years to find a gang like this, very fortunate.

[TSiWRX]

Back in say October/November it seemed like gun shops were in a price war (the good kind) with regards to the Shield. They dropped down to about $325 + tax from a couple of show vendors who also have stores. I think S&W had just caught up on production, had a glut of that model ready to ship, and the deals were ON. But even now they haven't gone back up anywhere near the introductory prices, which were north of $450. Good old supply/demand at work.

I agree - I distinctly remember a friend asking me about them due to the price he saw at the local Fin. They've gone up to $375, now.

By the way, don't feed Allen's ego, sometimes we have to get the vaudeville hook and drag him off the stage.

Mea culpa.

[KMayUSA6060]

Back in say October/November it seemed like gun shops were in a price war (the good kind) with regards to the Shield. They dropped down to about $325 + tax from a couple of show vendors who also have stores. I think S&W had just caught up on production, had a glut of that model ready to ship, and the deals were ON. But even now they haven't gone back up anywhere near the introductory prices, which were north of $450. Good old supply/demand at work.

I don't own a Shield but have a couple of the Compact models around. They are all available with or without manual safety. For clarity's sake I prefer without, although on the full and Compact versions the safety paddles are easy to use and not in my way. In my limited experience with shooting a couple of Shields**, I didn't like the smaller, harder to access safety on that model. So were I to own a Shield it would definitely be the "without" variant.

I do not mention this to sway you either way, it's just a user-chooseable option that gun gives you.

By the way, don't feed Allen's ego, sometimes we have to get the vaudeville hook and drag him off the stage.


**It's great to find a group of friends to shoot with regularly. Everybody gets to try out each other's newest firearms acquisitions. Took me 15 years to find a gang like this, very fortunate.

I have flirted with carrying a gun that does not have a safety. I've watched numerous videos on it. Ultimately, I think I'm going to listen to my girlfriend (she has a Sig Sauer P938), who says, "I'm not saying I need to use the safety all of the time, but at least I have the option, you know?"

The Shield with the thumb safety keeps the safety pretty flush with the slide, etc. I like that it most likely will not snag on anything, and I can carry a round in the chamber with the safety on if need be. As an inexperienced carrier, this would most likely give me the most peace of mind, too. I will be sure to practice drawing the firearm and flicking the safety off immediately, though.

[TSiWRX]

If the gun has a safety, use the safety - always.

[NavyChief]

^^^ This.
Also, keep in mind the 938 is a single action pistol designed to be carried cocked. I wouldn't dream of carrying one with the safety off.
Striker fired pistols do not really need a safety.

[KMayUSA6060]

^^^ This.
Also, keep in mind the 938 is a single action pistol designed to be carried cocked. I wouldn't dream of carrying one with the safety off.
Striker fired pistols do not really need a safety.

So would you recommend, if I do end up liking the Shield enough to buy it after shooting it, getting the Shield with or without a safety?

[NavyChief]

So would you recommend, if I do end up liking the Shield enough to buy it after shooting it, getting the Shield with or without a safety?

Personal preference - without. One less thing to worry about in an "Ohmigawd!" situation.
True story. Four years ago I was at TDI for OFCC's Annual Fun'n'Gun. There was a husband & wife on my squad, each wearing easily $2.5-3k of gear on their waists. They were both running very high end 1911s. Keep in mind this was a relatively low stress environment. It was also obvious they were both pretty competent. And yet in just under a 100-round course of fire I saw three - three - failures to disengage the safety between them. I will grant you they recovered fairly quickly. But if an experienced shooter in a low stress situation can forget...

[TSiWRX]

^ And that's exactly what I sent KMayUSA6060 in our PM -

That the use of the firearm's manual safety, when it is equipped with one, in a consistent manner builds in consistency - and consistency goes a long way towards both preventing negligence from crawling into the picture (so that there will never be a moment of "Oh, I thought the gun was on-safe!") as well as to ingrain the necessary motions that must be achieved while under dire stress.

External manual safety or not, I think that's as much a personal issue for shooters as is the question of striker versus hammer. Whatever floats your boat.

But if the gun has a safety, I firmly believe that it is there to actually be used.

[M-Quigley]

When the first time I actually had to draw a concealed handgun in a self defense situation, I was using an IWB holster in the 4 o'clock position, with the gun grip canted forward. It felt very comfortable to carry in this position when walking in the fall to spring seasons, so much so it felt like I wasn't even carrying most of the time. A witness to the attempted armed robbery inside the store said it looked to him like the quickest draw he had ever seen, except perhaps in western movies. My hands were already at belt level though, and I had my right hand near my sweater in order to raise it up a little above my belt, getting ready to expose a badge at the 2 o'clock position. The draw probably only looked so quick to the witness because all I was able to safely do in that circumstance was bring it out of the holster and leave it at belt level, at the 3 o'clock position. I had practiced extensively shooting from this position though, consistently hitting the center of a B27 target from distances of ten feet or less. The perp was too close to safely bring the gun up to eye level at that moment, although the distance widened considerably after the gun was drawn.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

... Working retail and having debt doesn't always allow me to put away any solid chunks of money though. Looking for a new job but being degreeless in today's society blows.

If you are paying student loans, request a hardship deferment for 90 days.

[Mr. Glock]

^^^ This.
Also, keep in mind the 938 is a single action pistol designed to be carried cocked. I wouldn't dream of carrying one with the safety off.
Striker fired pistols do not really need a safety.

It might have just been how you wrote the sentence, but the manual safety on a P938 is not optional. It should only be taken off when on target. There is nothing but a short, crisp single action trigger pull between firing the gun and not at that time (as NC refers, a striker-fired gun is different).

Nice thing is you can manipulate the slide with the safety on, so it can be quite a safe gun too.

[carmen fovozzo]

^^^ This.
Also, keep in mind the 938 is a single action pistol designed to be carried cocked. I wouldn't dream of carrying one with the safety off.
Striker fired pistols do not really need a safety.

So would you recommend, if I do end up liking the Shield enough to buy it after shooting it, getting the Shield with or without a safety?

I carry my Shield with a safety off.....it has never been on....for got it was even there.