When did it happen?

[Chuck]

When did open carriers EVER make things worse for the average gun owner then they already were?

Lots of times. Starbucks. Chipotle. Target. OC Tarrant County (not all OC Texas, they've improved, but definitely the OC Tarrant County group). More recently, in MI both Ann Arbor and Clio school districts banned guns in response to open carriers.

It would be wrong to say OC is always wrong or always leads to negative consequences, but it would also be wrong to say that never happens either. Best analogy I heard is that exercising your rights is like exercising your body, yes it's important but if you do it wrong you can screw things up and set yourself back.

I was asking specifically about laws, but let me ask this, are Starbucks, Chipotle, and Target posted CPZs today?

[BobK]

I was asking specifically about laws, but let me ask this, are Starbucks, Chipotle, and Target posted CPZs today?

They are not CPZ's. However, those events cannot be dismissed completely because the open carry of rifles in these establishments (with documented pictures of unsafe gun handling) created such a storm of negative publicity in both the local papers and on the local newscasts, that the the phone lines to legislators had a melt down.

A similar example was bringing a 3D printer onto the state house lawn to manufacture firearms while protesting, which was also a move that generated negative publicity in both the press and the legislature. Since it was accompanied by statements that failure to pass so-called "Constitutional Carry" would mean the Legislators were "guilty of treason", the Legislators also viewed manufacturing firearms on the Statehouse lawn as implicit threats.

Unfortunately, unlicensed carry (open and concealed) was doomed to failure this session of the Texas Legislature before the session ever started due to that negative publicity. Before the negative publicity started, the expectations were we could easily pass licensed open carry in 2015, get people used to the idea, and then pass unlicensed carry in the 2017 session. I have no idea how long that well has been poisoned now.

By the way, I am not talking about isolated idjits. I am talking about the actions of organized groups, specifically Open Carry Texas and Open Carry Tarrant County, including their respective leaders CJ Grisham and Cory Watkins.

Chuck, I also want to make sure that you and everyone else understand that I am not trying to attack you personally, or anyone else in these forums. I am simply trying to give my political perspective of the unfortunate events in Texas. The ironic thing is I fully support the concept of unlicensed carry (open and concealed), but am frustrated that bizarre behavior has blocked such progress.

[Chuck]

Do you happen to have a list of pro gun bills that didn't pass in recent years?
For example, what "doomed" open carry in 2010?
Or 2005?

Or was there simply nothing to be "doomed" because Texans not want Open Carry until the OC groups showed up?


Expectations can be funny things
Last GA here in Ohio, we expected Stand Your Ground to pass, but it didn't
We're not blaming any groups for that though, with the exception of a select group of Senators though
We are instead re-evaluating our stategy, marketing plan, if you will, and girding our loins for battle during THIS general assembly

[carmen fovozzo]

I'm against being against OC...

[Mustang380gal]

posted an annoying image

Do not provoke me. I am in no mood for that.

We do not need a fight in our ranks; we need to be standing together. We just sued Cleveland, and do not need to tick our own people off.

[Klingon00]

However, the issue is not open carry, the issue is rude, obstructive, obnoxious and unproductive behavior.

^^This right here.

Open carry is inherently a political activity (regardless of intention). Having a poor attitude and appearance does not help public opinion of all gun owners. The issue shouldn't be about open carry, it should be about being a good ambassador for our cause.

[Stryker74]

***** This is a bit long and winded, but does get to a point. Continue reading at your own risk! *****

You know Chuck, perception is a huge point of leading to acceptance.

Man saw the horizon and perceived that the world was flat. That was a generally accepted notion for quite a while. Not everyone believed that, or else no one would have ever tried to sail past the edge – but many did believe it due to perception.

Man thought that he needed feathered wings to fly since that is what the birds had. That was a notion that was tested a fair amount. But, da Vinci devised a rotor apparatus during his lifetime (15 April 1452 – 2 May 1519) – so not everyone thought you needed feathers to fly.

We still believe and depict Napoleon as a short man - though he was taller at 5'7" than the average French man at the time. He still gets depicted to this day as a diminutive man by all.



Now, combine perceptions with marketing to further endear us to those thoughts - and you are moving toward generally accepted notions. This is important, especially in this day of the constantly connected person with access to the 24 hour news cycle. In our lifetime, we have seen this come on (I blame Ted Turner personally for the 24 hour new cycle of today) - and now it is a generally accepted/expected thing. It also has the side effect of being marketing - for better or worse. When a topic comes into the news cycle - everyone knows about it. At least what the news cycle presented (marketed) for their reporting. Is it real or factual? Not always, but it is often accepted as factual.

When a minority group gets that marketing for some inane or even downright stupid/illegal act, it is being worked into the perception of those who watch it. Let's take the LA riots compared to the Ferguson riots from a statistical view. The LA riots in 1992 lasted 6 days, with at least 53 deaths, nearly 2,400 injured, and over 12,000 arrests. In Ferguson, the 2 (main) waves of riots lasted 24 days, with 1 confirmed dead, around 2 dozen injured, and about 200 arrests. By far, the LA riots were statistically a worse disaster than Ferguson - but Ferguson was all over the 24 hour marketing (news) cycle that we have today. That changes the perception, and people think that Ferguson was utterly horrific because of that marketing by the news cycle.

Now, when it comes to perception affecting the laws - we generally have no specific context from lawmakers to show that their perception of events or persons had an effect. The main exception to that would be the individuals in Texas whose antics were directly quoted and used in the context of certain legislative points (as BobK mentioned in his details).

But what we do have is the perception of those individuals in Texas (as well as other open carry groups that push the envelope) by the general public. I will use myself in this example. I don't generally OC, but I will for a demonstration/protest that is being done for legal rights and purposes (and not against a private business). When I OC, it is generally a handgun and my spare magazines. Nothing out of the ordinary about how I dress - nothing that draws attention to me as an individual. However, as we all know, there are individuals that adhere to a different notion of how to present themselves in such a demonstration. Even recently, I saw people wearing 5.11/para-military type gear with slung AR-15s like they were getting ready to go to battle (see what I did there - perception). They stood out in the crowd, and perhaps drew attention away from the true purpose of the gathering.

When you want to market something, you look for an aspect that makes the "product" standout from the rest. So, when the market team (reporters) from the news cycle cover such events - they find the standout points. When the persons against guns altogether want to market their side - they look for the extreme standout. All of this is to bolster perception - even if it is not entirely factual. And when the noted stand out product of open carry events are the ones who like to take things to the edge (or beyond) - that is what is going to get into that news (marketing) cycle and further the perception into the generally accepted notion.

At that recent event I mentioned above, I counted just a few slung rifles and even fewer in the para-military type gear. But, those persons are the ones that stand out, giving that perception that the whole group is carrying rifles and dressed like that. No matter the opinion of BB62's campus walks - he understands this marketing. He requests that persons don't wear certain attire so as not to draw attention and bolster any perceived negatives of the event by those looking to market the extreme.

So, Chuck, I think there are a lot of perceptions out there that the OC crowd affects the laws directly but we don't know that for sure (save the noted direct correlation of the Texas folks). But, the thing is, all of the perceptions from the marketing come together to form accepted opinion. As people go through their day, they rely upon facts, knowledge, and notions all the time. So, while it is probable that the notion of the OC people pushing the envelope with their tactics (although they are the minority of OC folks) affect the legislators decisions – we just don’t know. And, unless you get a poll going of legislators on this topic – I don’t think you will ever know.

What we can do, though, is work on affecting that perception that leads to the generally accepted notion. We can work to present a good front of a standard “product” when it comes to OC – so much so that the good front becomes more recognizable than the antics of an outside few.

[Tweed Ring]

I don’t open carry. I don’t like open carry. I have open carried. Having said the aforementioned, I don’t care if law abiding citizens decide to open carry, or not.

I recall conversations about Texas with family members. There seemed to a certain flavor of thumb-in-the-eye by proponents. Opponents jump on these actions, and scared some pols. Scare enough pols and we lose.

[Brian D.]

I'll give an example that dovetails with what Stryker said above: Years ago in Cincinnati there was a guy who showed up at political gatherings in an Uncle Sam costume, and he always carried poorly hand scrawled signs giving his position on whatever topic was being discussed, along with others that had nothing to do with said subject. ("Put Pete Rose back into baseball!" and such.)

So when Cincinnati was considering an "assault weapons" ban, the firearms rights advocates showed up in large numbers, well dressed and with excellent prepared remarks to share with Council and the media. Long story short the reporters basically shoved us aside to put mikes and cameras on the Uncle Sam guy, who was a genuine, raving idiot.

I've seen the media do that a few times since, in my travels as an OFCC member. At the Statehouse during the 2nd Amendment gathering in 2008, the reporters tried to pick out those folks from our side that dressed the worst and/or looked like they'd be the poorest speakers.

Sorry if my view here comes off arrogant, I swear that's not my intention.

[AlanM]

Just for the record, I'm living in blue county in a sea of red ones about 65 miles west of DC and Richmond and less than 2 miles from Thomas Jefferson's Monticello.
I have a Virginia CHP which I got before I reported to Summit county that I had moved.
BUT, I don't own anything but OWB paddle holsters for my handguns.
If I'm carrying concealed it's due to wearing a over shirt or coat due to the weather.
I've been open carrying in:
My doctor's office
All three local Kroger stores
A local Greek owned restaurant
Red Lobster
Both Walmarts
My favorite pizza place.
When I pump my gas.
And a couple of tourist type locations.

I've never had a problem and never had a negative comment.
In fact, yesterday at the pizza parlor I got into two separate conversations with two couples ( 2 men and a husband and wife, the wife never looked at me).
My edc is usually a SS framed 1911 (Caspian Arms frame) that an acquaintance built back in 1986 and traded to me for two wheel guns in '87.
The parkerized slide is starting to show some noticeable holster wear but I just keep carrying it whenever I leave the house.

OBTW - I used to OC at Walmart and other stores in the Stow area for a couple of years before I moved to VA.
I plan to carry while in Ohio for my daughter's graduation from OSU next month. (Not on the campus or in the stadium.)

[carmen fovozzo]

They never bother OC guys that wear leather hats and a Raccoon draped over their shoulder..

[rickt]

Speaking of perceptions...did anyone notice the photo that accompanied the cleveland.com article on the OFCC lawsuit? It shows an open carrier with an AR-15 slung over his back.

[AlanM]

They never bother OC guys that wear leather hats and a Raccoon draped over their shoulder..

Actually Bert, the raccoon, is long gone and I seldom wear the leather fedora in favor of a black felt cowboy hat with a telescope crown reminiscent of the hat wore by James West in the old TV show.

[Bama.45]

Speaking of not being messed with


I'd like to be like Grizzly Adams and have a Ben as a pet... Wouldn't need to carry, if I had a 700-800 lb grizzly walking beside me

[MyWifeSaidYes]

posted an annoying image

Do not provoke me. I am in no mood for that.

We do not need a fight in our ranks; we need to be standing together. We just sued Cleveland, and do not need to tick our own people off.

Sorry to have upset you. The image was intended for Chuck.

When I'm responding to an individual post, I'll include their comment in a quote.