HB 31 - Call to forum members! Help with research needed!

[MyWifeSaidYes]

PLEASE post links to any and all stories where a minor successfully defended themselves or a family member with a firearm. The age of the story doesn't matter as long as there is a working link to the story.

I want to pass out a list of these events with brief descriptions to each Representative's office on the same day the anti's go door-to-door

OHIO COALITION AGAINST GUN VIOLENCE
invites you to join us in
Protecting our children by requiring

SAFE STORAGE OF FIREARMS
ADVOCACY DAY : HOUSE BILL 31

March 11, 2014
10 am—4 pm

SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS

Doctors Organized for Healthcare Solutions
God Before Guns
National Council of Jewish Women, Cleveland Section
National Council of Jewish Women, Columbus Section
League of Women Voters of Ohio
Ohio Council of Churches
Ohio Suicide Prevention Foundation
Progress Ohio
United Methodist Women: East Ohio Conference

[sd790]

Eleven year old defends herself against three armed burglars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRKvVAuHqYM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Twelve year old shoots intruder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPfz7ENFUB0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ten year old grabs intruder's gun and shoots, saves family: http://thearmedcitizen.net/10-year-old- ... es-family/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Teen scares off burglar with pistol: http://thearmedcitizen.net/springfield- ... th-pistol/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[medmandan]

http://www.ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=79032" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am stuck on my phone but armed citizens from nra should be a good resource as well

[stew47]

So when all 3 anti gun folks go door to door ... Seriously how many of them will be there?

[MyWifeSaidYes]

Stew,

Let me apologize for any 'flak' you get, but myself, Chuck and many others were present when ProgressOhio, the local chapter of ProgressAmerica, supported the bussing in of HUNDREDS of people from northeastern Ohio cities to attend an anti-HB203 rally around the Statehouse in October of last year.

HUNDREDS!

Did you notice the list of supporting organizations for this event?

Here it is, again:

SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS

Doctors Organized for Healthcare Solutions
God Before Guns
National Council of Jewish Women, Cleveland Section
National Council of Jewish Women, Columbus Section
League of Women Voters of Ohio
Ohio Council of Churches
Ohio Suicide Prevention Foundation
Progress Ohio <<<<---------
United Methodist Women: East Ohio Conference

A few days ago, (Thursday), we saw that anti-gun organizations have no problem LYING to our elected legislators. One of those lies was telling our Senators that HB203's reduction in CHL mandatory training hours would ELIMINATE the requirement for live-fire range time.

Anyone reading the actual bill knows that's simply not true. Live-fire range time has been, and still would be, a required part of training.

So you see, Stew, any comments that might mistakenly be viewed as flippant might also be taken personally.

The anti-gun groups can bring in 100 paid and fed people for every 1 unpaid, bring-your-own-lunch, pro-gun volunteer, and simply lie to the legislators based on what video the organizers show their people on the bus ride down. Our voices of logic, reason and FACT are drowned out by superior numbers...and lies.

While it is fun to have a rally and make signs and try to out-slogan the anti's, the real fight has always been, and still is, at the Statehouse.

If your schedule just won't allow you time to visit in person, calling your Senator is an EXCELLENT way to let them know how you feel about HB31.

HB 31 is a bad bill and would have prevented almost ALL of the successful, defensive usage of firearms by underaged citizens.

If you fail to lock up your handgun when a 20-year-old is in the house,
regardless if a relative or friend, you may be charged with a felony.

[Scruit]

Stew,

If you fail to lock up your handgun when a 20-year-old is in the house,
regardless if a relative or friend, you may be charged with a felony.

Is that actually true, though? I read it as M3 for a minor getting hold of the gun, and a F1 if the minor uses the gun to hurt someone (except self defense). There is no acutaly penalty specified for the gun simply being unlocked - the penalty applies only if the minor gets hold of the gun.

Please Where is the felony for 20-yo being "in the house"?

http://www.legislature.state.oh.us/bill ... =130_HB_31" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sec. 2923.191. (A)(1) No person shall store or leave a firearm in a manner or location in the person's residence if the person knows or reasonably should know that a minor is able to gain access to the firearm.

(2)(a) This section does not apply to a person who stores or leaves a firearm in the person's residence if the firearm is kept in safe storage or equipped with a tamper-resistant mechanical lock or other safety device that is properly engaged so as to render the weapon inoperable by any person other than the owner of the firearm or any other lawfully authorized user of the firearm.

(b) This section does not apply to a person who stores or leaves a firearm in the person's residence if a minor gains access to the firearm as a result of any other person's unlawful entry into the person's residence.

(B)(1) Whoever violates this section is guilty of criminally negligent storage of a firearm if a minor gains access to the firearm as a result of the violation without the lawful permission of the minor's parent, guardian, or custodian.

(2) Except as otherwise provided in division (B)(3) of this section, a violation of this section is a misdemeanor of the third degree.

(3) If the minor who gains access to the firearm as a result of the violation and without the lawful permission of the minor's parent, guardian, or custodian uses the firearm to cause personal injury or death, other than in self-defense, a violation of this section is a felony of the first degree.

(C) Nothing in this section prohibits a person who is in the person's residence from carrying a firearm on the person's person or placing a firearm in a location that is under the person's immediate control.

I honestly don't see how this law will change anything that I do at home. My guns are either in my immediate control (holster or workbench) or in a safe. I have a 10yo and he has no ability to access the guns without me or my wife being there.

I understand the "thin end of the wedge" argument, but we use that tactic ourselves so the whole "glass houses" thing applies here.

My objection to the law is that the kind of people who leave a gun on the TV stand while their 7yo has frinds over are NOT going to suddenly start storing it in a safe just because of this new law. It will actually wind up being a way of further punishing the grieving family members of the dead kid. We don't need a law that is unenforceable at the time it is needed (before the kid gets shot) and is just a way to dis out vengance over the corpse of a child.

What we DO need is education. We need to spend the money that would have been spend on this "After-the-horse-has-bolted" law and put it into firearms education. Include a section on appropriate storage during CCW/hunter education classes, and maybe even a PSA. Expand Eddie the Eagle and take him into school and teach the kids to keep their grubby little mitts off any gun they find, and run some tv ads like they to for DUI prevention. Get people thinking about safe storage.


If my kid ever got hold of my gun and died as a result, I wouldn't give a crap what the law did to me.

I'd already be in hell.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

Okay. Let's look at each clause of the proposed law:

(A)(1) No person shall store or leave a firearm in a manner or location in the person's residence if the person knows or reasonably should know that a minor is able to gain access to the firearm.

Okay. This section sounds well-meaning.

I'm sure lots of PERSONAL PROPERTY that is LEGAL TO POSSESS is CRIMINALLY REGULATED inside YOUR OWN HOME.

I'm also sure this is not, literally, opening the door to inspections by the police.

By the way, both of the above lines are sarcasm.

(2)(a) This section does not apply to a person who stores or leaves a firearm in the person's residence if the firearm is kept in safe storage or equipped with a tamper-resistant mechanical lock or other safety device that is properly engaged so as to render the weapon inoperable by any person other than the owner of the firearm or any other lawfully authorized user of the firearm.

'Safe storage' is an undefined term. A prosecutor will claim a firearm obviously wasn't in 'safe storage' if a minor manages to get access to it, even if the minor breaks your security and steals your gun.

That leads to the next section...

(b) This section does not apply to a person who stores or leaves a firearm in the person's residence if a minor gains access to the firearm as a result of any other person's unlawful entry into the person's residence.

Read that. Slowly. 'Other person's unlawful entry'

I believe it is meant to allow a minor to get a gun in case someone breaks into the home.

What it DOES is charge YOU with a crime if a minor steals your gun, whether they break in, are invited in or live in the home.

Can a 16 or 17-year-old figure out how to use a crowbar or bolt cutter on your storage device?

Sure.

(B)(1) Whoever violates this section is guilty of criminally negligent storage of a firearm if a minor gains access to the firearm as a result of the violation without the lawful permission of the minor's parent, guardian, or custodian.

A 16-year-old burglar probably doesn't have his parents' permission.

But this also applies to your own children. That's supposed to be the emotional catch.

But if your own child STEALS YOUR GUN, you are the one charged with a crime.

(2) Except as otherwise provided in division (B)(3) of this section, a violation of this section is a misdemeanor of the third degree.

60 days in jail and a $500 fine? That's too many bologna sandwiches, even for me.

(3) If the minor who gains access to the firearm as a result of the violation and without the lawful permission of the minor's parent, guardian, or custodian uses the firearm to cause personal injury or death, other than in self-defense, a violation of this section is a felony of the first degree.

Everyone focuses on dead kids. Yeah, that's tragic. Now read that section again. 'Personal injury'.

It doesn't say HOW the personal injury must be caused, nor does it say to WHOM.

If the 16-year-old burglar steals MY gun and PISTOL WHIPS me on his way out of my house, my M3 just became an F1.

An F1, or first degree felony, is punishable by up to ELEVEN YEARS in PRISON and a $20,000 FINE !!

(C) Nothing in this section prohibits a person who is in the person's residence from carrying a firearm on the person's person or placing a firearm in a location that is under the person's immediate control.

Really? Gee whiz, mister! You sure are a nice fellow. Thanks for giving me permission to do something IN MY OWN FREAKING HOME !!


I'm all for keeping firearms out of the hands of irresponsible people and of young and untrained children, BUT I'm totally against criminal regulations of legally owned personal property INSIDE MY HOME.

[Scruit]

"Safe storage" is a critical term. Everything hinges on this. I'd prefer they define it explicitly.

Somethig like: "Stored in a UL-approved safe or secured using a UL-approved gun safety device designed to prevent unauthorized use."


Don't forget, before you get indignant about the law telling you how to handle your own property, that the law in may areas specifically illegalizes leaving your car engine running unattended, and you can be held liable if someone steals your car. http://overlawyered.com/2009/05/owner-o ... run-death/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Liek I said before, I think the law is unnecessary and misses the point.

You don't need caps. I can read, and parse emphasis from contextual clues.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

...Don't forget, before you get indignant about the law telling you how to handle your own property, that the law in may areas specifically illegalizes leaving your car engine running unattended, and you can be held liable if someone steals your car...

I will avoid capitalizing.

However, please don't mind me if I highlight some things for others that may miss this one point:

This proposed law
criminalizes
legally owned
personal property
in your own home.


The vehicle regulations you mentioned DO NOT occur IN YOUR OWN HOME.

Oops.

Sorry.

[Harleywood]

Hope this helps
Thanks for all you do

The 30 days series was an effort to help show that guns not only take lives, but very often save them. The series highlighted one story each day of a gun being used in self-defense. Most of these stories never even hit mainstream media. This was a fact that was both shocking, yet not surprising. But that fact in itself should be proof positive of the biasness and underlying intentions of the media.

These are the stories from the 30 days series.

Woman shoots intruder as he chokes her sister and demands money

Homeowner shoots intruder while waiting for police to arrive

87-year-old man saves woman from attacker, possibly prevents rape

Man shoots and kills intruder after returning home to burglary in progress

Armed robber runs away scared when woman pulls gun on him

Man with AR-15 saves tax preparation business from armed robbers

Dad protects himself and 2-year-old son during home invasion by armed intruders

Cell phone store employee stops armed robbery

Robbery stopped by armed sandwich shop employee

Armed Texas homeowner assists police in capturing robber

Young man in Texas protects parents from violent intruders

Pizza delivery driver in Indiana shoots armed robber

Texas homeowner shoots intruder during home invasion, protects wife and kids

Texas resident shoots intruder during attempted home invasion

North Carolina man fights for his life during violent home invasion

Alabama mother of two scares off intruder, he returns with letter of apology

Baton Rouge father shoots and kills armed intruder

Houston man holds three burglars at gunpoint while waiting for police to arrive

Armed Maryland resident shoots intruder during attempted home invasion

Armed citizen shoots suspect during attempted bank robbery in Missouri

Armed citizen stops attempted robbery at liquor store in Topeka, no shots fired

Grocery store owner shoots suspect during attempted robbery

Woman fires shotgun at armed intruder after waking to find him in her bedroom

Miami man shoots and kills armed robber

North Carolina widow holds burglar at gunpoint until sheriff arrives

Armed citizen in Washington shoots intruder who threatened to kill woman inside

Intruder shot after breaking into South Carolina home and attacking woman inside

Tennessee teen shoots at armed prowler

81-year-old man in Florida stops attempted robbery, shoots would-be robber

Texas boy uses handgun to stop murder plot after mother and sister are raped

Armed citizen in Wisconsin stops woman from being severely beaten on a sidewalk

This concludes the series. However, at the overwhelming request of her readers, Jennifer Cruz has decided to continue to help bring stories of self-defense and firearms to light. She invites readers to share any gun related self-defense stories with her, so that they may be shared with others. She can be found on Facebook or contacted at [email protected].

[Scruit]

This proposed law criminalizes legally owned personal property in your own home.

It criminalizes unsafe storage, not the gun itself. I'm not sure if you are failing to understand the proposed law or intentionally mischaracterizing it.

And again, I disagree with the law. We're on the same side. It's just I personally am not going to go around saying; "If you fail to lock up your handgun when a 20-year-old is in the house, regardless if a relative or friend, you may be charged with a felony" because that statement is utterly false.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

This proposed law criminalizes legally owned personal property in your own home.

It criminalizes unsafe storage, not the gun itself. I'm not sure if you are failing to understand the proposed law or intentionally mischaracterizing it.

And again, I disagree with the law. We're on the same side. It's just I personally am not going to go around saying; "If you fail to lock up your handgun when a 20-year-old is in the house, regardless if a relative or friend, you may be charged with a felony" because that statement is utterly false.

I agree that we are on the same side, but you may not be thinking like a prosecutor. I'm not a prosecutor, so I'm just pretending based on the several malicious (IMHO)prosecutions I have personally sat in on.

I use 20 as the upper age because the term "minor" is defined as either under 18 or under 21, depending on the section of the Revised Code.

This bill does not specify which definition applies. R.C. 2901.30 defines "minor" as under the age of 18 and that should be the definition used. However, as handguns cannot be sold to those under 21, a prosecutor could argue that "under 21" should apply.

Here is a non-hype summary:

If any 20-year-old (or younger) gets access to your firearm, even if by illegal means, it is only a 3rd degree misdemeanor.

If any 20-year-old (or younger) gets access to your firearm, even if by illegal means, and injures anyone with the firearm, even you, you have committed a 1st degree felony. No shots need to be fired, just causing 'personal injury' with the firearm is enough to trigger the felony charge.

Those statements are utterly true. Read the full text of the bill, not just the summary.

While you are correct that the bill actually criminalizes unsafe storage, it does so inside your home.

There are no other laws that attach criminal charges to what you do with LEGALLY OWNED personal property in your home.

THAT IS A DOOR WE DO NOT WANT OPENED!!!!!!

Not just as gun owners, but as private citizens.

[DontTreadOnMe]

While you are correct that the bill actually criminalizes unsafe storage, it does so inside your home.

I disagree that it criminalizes unsafe storage. It criminalizes certain methods of storage. Whether that's 'safe' or 'unsafe' depends on more factors than just the presence, or possible presence, of minors. I think if you concede that point you've given yourself a larger uphill battle than necessary.

If 11 year old Alyssa Gutierrez's mom had stored her rifle as required by this bill, she wouldn't have been able to drive those 3 armed home invaders from her house.

If 12 year old Kendra St. Clair's mom had stored her handgun as required by this bill, she would have been victimized by the man who broke into her home. A man who had previously been arrested for abducting a 17year old with diminished mental capacity (according to reports that girl's mental age was around 10-11).

Those are just 2 stories, and yes they're anecdotal, but the lives of those 2 girls aren't anecdotes. Safe storage can be accomplished with educatiion, and can save lives.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

While you are correct that the bill actually criminalizes unsafe storage, it does so inside your home.

I disagree that it criminalizes unsafe storage. It criminalizes certain methods of storage. Whether that's 'safe' or 'unsafe' depends on more factors than just the presence, or possible presence, of minors. I think if you concede that point you've given yourself a larger uphill battle than necessary.

If 11 year old Alyssa Gutierrez's mom had stored her rifle as required by this bill, she wouldn't have been able to drive those 3 armed home invaders from her house.

If 12 year old Kendra St. Clair's mom had stored her handgun as required by this bill, she would have been victimized by the man who broke into her home. A man who had previously been arrested for abducting a 17year old with diminished mental capacity (according to reports that girl's mental age was around 10-11).

Those are just 2 stories, and yes they're anecdotal, but the lives of those 2 girls aren't anecdotes. Safe storage can be accomplished with education, and can save lives.

Those are the types of stories I asked for in my OP.

One big problem with the bill is that 'safe' storage is undefined.

However, I don't want to focus on what legislators think 'safe storage' is...I want to focus on keeping their law out of my home. And yours.

We've spent countless hours pressing our legislature to get rid of the restrictions on how CHL holders can carry in a vehicle. We will continue to push for constitutional carry, getting rid of notification and restoring other gun rights.

Why invite ANY restriction of any kind into our homes?


BTW, did you know that a person with HIV, who KNOWS they have HIV, that spits in a police officer's face, only gets charged with a 3rd degree felony?