clarification on 2923.16 (C)(3)

[BriKuz]

2923.16 (C)(3) In plain sight and secured in a rack or holder made for the purpose

Wouldn't that mean that an unloaded pistol in a holster in plain sight would be legal? (for a non-CHL holder, I mean)

[JediSkipdogg]

Few things...

1) Why would you want to secure an unloaded pistol that way? I would just use a gun box under the seat so it's not as visible. I guess I don't see why I'd want to drive around with a Glock 19 strapped on the dash unloaded.

2) Are there really pistol holders "made for the purpose"? I know there are shotgun racks for vehicles but are there pistol ones? Remember, it's law enforcement interpretation so something homemade may not fly on the side of the road.

Legally, yes, you could strap a Serpa holster on the side of the steering wheel and store the loaded magazine in the glove box. Me, if I didn't have a CHL, would just store them in different gloveboxes or one in the glovebox and the other in a gun safe/box.

[Brian D.]

Are there really pistol holders "made for the purpose"? I know there are shotgun racks for vehicles but are there pistol ones? Remember, it's law enforcement interpretation so something homemade may not fly on the side of the road.

Yes, I've seen some commercially made pistol holders designed to be attached in various places inside a vehicle's passenger compartment. They were selling like hotcakes the first time I saw them for sale at an Indianapolis gun show.

[JediSkipdogg]

Are there really pistol holders "made for the purpose"? I know there are shotgun racks for vehicles but are there pistol ones? Remember, it's law enforcement interpretation so something homemade may not fly on the side of the road.

Yes, I've seen some commercially made pistol holders designed to be attached in various places inside a vehicle's passenger compartment. They were selling like hotcakes the first time I saw them for sale at an Indianapolis gun show.

The question would then be "secured." I've seen the under the steering wheel holster but I would think some officers wouldn't think that's secure enough. Remember, alot of this is up to officer interpretation on the side of the road at first. You may beat the court case, but that's only after the initial expense of which the court will just say officer misinterpretation.

[Werz]

Are there really pistol holders "made for the purpose"? I know there are shotgun racks for vehicles but are there pistol ones? Remember, it's law enforcement interpretation so something homemade may not fly on the side of the road.

Yes, I've seen some commercially made pistol holders designed to be attached in various places inside a vehicle's passenger compartment. They were selling like hotcakes the first time I saw them for sale at an Indianapolis gun show.

The question would then be "secured." I've seen the under the steering wheel holster but I would think some officers wouldn't think that's secure enough. Remember, alot of this is up to officer interpretation on the side of the road at first. You may beat the court case, but that's only after the initial expense of which the court will just say officer misinterpretation.

"Secured" is not as big a problem as "plain sight." If you look at some of the case law, it means more than just "in sight" or "plain view." It needs to be fairly blatant and obvious.

[Werz]

Follow-Up: What Constitutes "In Plain Sight":

Essentially, a review of the caselaw reveals that if the presence of a firearm is not readily apparent to anyone walking up and looking into a vehicle, then it may be considered a concealed weapon. Most of the confusion arises from situations where a weapon comes into "plain view" after something or someone in the vehicle is moved, but wasn't in "plain sight" when the officer first approached the vehicle. State v. Mellot, 2005-Ohio-1329, at ¶21.

[Quoting the trial judge] My interpretation of the words "plain sight" is as follows: the adjective plain is added in there to modify the noun sight. If they hadn't wanted it to apply to a certain situation I don't believe they would have added the word plain. Now obviously in this particular case the butt of the gun was in sight once you got inside the car or I suppose if you could maneuver yourself up on the hood you could have looked down and seen the butt. But, I don't think that's plain sight and I don't think that's plain sight that they have anticipated in this particular statute. Plain sight to me is that it's laying out where the casual (inaudible) can be seen. I don't think you have to search like an Easter egg hunt to find the weapon. And I think when you have to do that it's not in plain sight. And I think plain modifies the noun and it's in there for that purpose.

(Emphasis ours.)

We agree with the trial judge that the adjective "plain" in subsection 4 is not surplusage and elevates the degree of visibility required over that which the noun "sight", standing alone, would require. We have no reason in this case to disturb the finding that the firearm was not in plain sight, or the finding of guilty. State v. Baker (Jan. 12, 1989), Montgomery App.No. 10888 (2nd Dist.).

There's a reason that shotgun and rifle racks attach to the rear window.

[BriKuz]

And having a holster taped to the rear window in a Mazda3 would kinda defeat the purpose of easy accessibility (especially when having to climb over kid seats to get at it! )

Now, if I store the pistols in the glove box, and mags in the center console, would it be prudent to inform the officer that there are two UNLOADED pistols in the glove-box when I go to reach for proof of financial responsibility? Would an LEO try to say that opening the compartment that the weapons are in is probable cause for a vehicle search? One of the issues is having the two gun cases floating around on the passenger side floor (we just found out that my wife has to have the passenger seat fairly far forward to fit our new son's car seat behind her) this leaves her with reduced legroom as it is, and i'm not hot on the idea of throwing two ruger cases down in her leg-well...

[JediSkipdogg]

And having a holster taped to the rear window in a Mazda3 would kinda defeat the purpose of easy accessibility (especially when having to climb over kid seats to get at it! )

Now, if I store the pistols in the glove box, and mags in the center console, would it be prudent to inform the officer that there are two UNLOADED pistols in the glove-box when I go to reach for proof of financial responsibility? Would an LEO try to say that opening the compartment that the weapons are in is probable cause for a vehicle search? One of the issues is having the two gun cases floating around on the passenger side floor (we just found out that my wife has to have the passenger seat fairly far forward to fit our new son's car seat behind her) this leaves her with reduced legroom as it is, and i'm not hot on the idea of throwing two ruger cases down in her leg-well...

IMO....if one is carrying an unloaded gun in their vehicle and they go anywhere near it, they should inform of such prior to going near it. Put the officer at ease. Otherwise, the second he sees the gun, he's going to assume it's loaded and that's what you are reaching for. It won't end pretty for the driver of said vehicle.