How well trained are NYPD officers?

[Pecker]

I'm a big fan of the website reddit. Here's an "Ask Me Anything' put on by a NYPD officer about the level of firearms training the force receives.

NYPD Officer Reddit Thread

You can read the summation and back and forth in the comments, but the officers original post is very telling.

I'm posting this here instead of politics or AMA because I'd rather talk about gun side of things because I want to answer and discuss issues

NYPD officer here to answer any questions. Here are some facts:

•Every officer hired since the introduction of pistols in the NYPD back in the early nineties is NOT allowed to use a revolver as their service weapon. They must choose between a Glock 19, S&W 5946, or a Sig p226. All of these guns are in DAO variant and have NO external safety.

•Everyone who is allowed to carry a gun in the department (not everyone is) has to re-qualify once every six months (give or take, it's been as short as five and as long as nine sometimes).

•MOST NYPD officers fire their FIRST gun, ever in their entire lives, at the police academy, some as young as 21 to as old as 35 shooting for their very first time, and on a DAO pistol.

•The qualifications are HORRIBLE mad get dumbed down every year.

•The NYPD offers once a month training for members to use, on their own time. However, all that is done during these sessions are the same basic dumbed down qualification exercises. You will only receive real help if you outright fail. Missed 12 out of fifty @ 7 yards? GOOD ENOUGH!

•Our tactical training is a joke and maybe ten people in a department of 34K have had Active Shooter training (I'm not exaggerating).

There is a lot broken, basically.

Some of our members NEVER take their service weapons out of their gun belts, and never carry ANYTHING off duty. I've seen people with 3 years on have brown rusted rear sights. Some never clean their weapons unless forced to by the firearms unit.

The NYPD has been tight fisted with ammo for the longest time. Take your one box and be happy.

I'll answer any questions you guys have.

PS: Our holsters are {inappropriate language} also.

EDIT: Replaced DOA with DAO

EDIT: It's true, twelve pins trigger springs suck

EDIT: We at only allowed Gen3 Glocks.

Definitely good info for whenever anyone argues that police officers are better trained than civilians. One box of ammo every 6 months? Yikes.

[sodbuster95]

When he says "DAO" with reference to a Glock 19, I wonder what that means regarding altering the "Glock Safe Action" that is not truly either SAO or DAO. Do they just give it a really heavy trigger pull? I'm not familiar with the S&W 5946, but I assume with the Sig, they mean the DAO only variant such that you are not firing SA after the first shot and cannot lock the hammer to the rear at all?

New York is a silly place.

[Brian D.]

When he says "DAO" with reference to a Glock 19, I wonder what that means regarding altering the "Glock Safe Action" that is not truly either SAO or DAO. Do they just give it a really heavy trigger pull? I'm not familiar with the S&W 5946, but I assume with the Sig, they mean the DAO only variant such that you are not firing SA after the first shot and cannot lock the hammer to the rear at all?

New York is a silly place.

I believe that a Glock modified to a "New York trigger" has a pull of about 12 pounds, perhaps it's even heavier. Got to handle one once, at a pistol match, and the owner was even gracious enough to offer to let me fire it over on the practice range. After feeling that trigger p-u-l-l, I politely declined. And I ain't one who normally turns down trigger time!

[brian0918]

Someone else asked him that question, and he says he meant Glock Action.

[pirateguy191]

I bought a Sig P226 DAO NYPD model brand new. Beautiful gun but with a 12lb + trigger, I sold it after one trip to the range. No wonder they can't hit squat.

[kcclark]

I heard a guest on the Stephanie Miller radio show (keep your enemies closer) use the NYPD incident as a reason that regular folks should not have CHLs. Boiled down to if the NYPD, with all their firearms training/expertise, end up shooting friendlies, there is no way that us rednecks should be allowed to carry guns for our self defense.

[parbreaker]

I heard a guest on the Stephanie Miller radio show (keep your enemies closer) use the NYPD incident as a reason that regular folks should not have CHLs. Boiled down to if the NYPD, with all their firearms training/expertise, end up shooting friendlies, there is no way that us rednecks should be allowed to carry guns for our self defense.

That's such a stupid line of reasoning... I did tell my friends that that's exactly what they would do though, twist it to fit their agenda. People that are ignorant to guns and who have never shot will believe stuff like this too...

The truth is I would take 100 rednecks over 100 NYPD officers in a heartbeat, and probably give you 1,000 to 1 odds that the rednecks would outperform the officers in any shooting competition. The best shooters I have ever seen have all been regular folks who just enjoy shooting.

[ArmyMedic90]

The reality of the situation is that a certain standard has to be written down in order for police agencies to get enough officers certified in firearms. Its a little unfair to compare the nation's largest police department's standards to the standards of a 15-man department for example. NYPD has to maintain their full strength at all times because they are policing one of the largest cities in the world. Its nice to think that they could all be crack shots and that the city of New York would be gracious enough to provide all of their officers with free range time and ammunition... But budgeting enough ammo for 25,000 officers to train with in order to become excellent marksmen would be an astronomical amount of money. So why don't the officers use their own money to pay for practice? NYPD starts their officers out at less than $40k a year and they are forced to live in one of the five boroughs of the city. Many officers have to work two part time jobs in order to make ends meet because they are paid so little by the department. It's a matter of budgetary concerns all-around. ESPECIALLY after this week's events...

Also, there are 25,000 of them. I'm sure there have to be at least a few bad apples in the bunch, right?

Just be thankful that we here in the Midwest (excluding Illinois) are blessed with politicians who allow us to carry and practice with our firearms whenever we damn well please. And that the Ohio Peace Officer Training Academy has some of the strictest standards in every aspect compared to almost all LEO training curriculums throughout the country...

[ArmyMedic90]

And yes, the "New York Trigger" is a moronic idea. Just because the trigger is heavier doesn't detract from the fact that it is the SHOOTER's job to make the conscious decision to fire... All it does is create handguns that are harder to shoot well with.

[Sevens]

Okay, you can make the "budget" argument and I suppose there's a bit of validity to it, but NO MORE SO than anyone else who works a regular joe job and doesn't make a heap of money. The difference is that those of us who hang out in gun forums tend to like guns, so we direct our budget to things we enjoy.

I think the real argument about NYPD or any big city LEO that don't have shooting skills is much, much more about their big city life-style, their upbringing and the simple fact that recreational shooting or hunting simply wasn't in their youth and certainly isn't easy to do or mainstream where they live.

Folks from the big city know everything about firearms from TV, movies and video games, and precious little else. On the flip-side, there's zillions of folks who have hardly ever (maybe never) seen a street side newsstand, ridden in a taxi, been on a subway train, filed through 3,000 people on a sidewalk at lunch time, gone up 35+ floors in an elevator or eaten a hot dog from a vendor with a cart, etc etc.

NYPD cops don't shoot and don't know much about guns? This comes as no surprise to me. It does seem quite silly considering they are issued one and expected to perform with it. I don't know jack squat about fission or fusion and the truth is, I don't have much interest in learning about it. That's really no big deal and not much of a subject line UNLESS I'm employed at a nuclear reactor, though. At that point -- I'd think it's a subject worthy of discussion, no?

[ArmyMedic90]

Right, the unfortunate part about large PDs is the fact that they need to meet a number quota of sworn officers, just like the military does. I've met my fair share of soldiers who can't shoot squat. Unfortunately for the rest of us, the military needs (or needed) to have X amount of boots on the ground, so the quality control simply isn't there.

The unfortunate outlook about many peace officers is the fact that they believe they will never have to draw their weapons to defend themselves because of all of the statistics that are out there. Some officers think police work is more about knowing how to interact with people (which is relatively true) so they will never have to use their weapons. I call BS on that statement because peace officers regularly put themselves in potentially dangerous situations. So the majority of officers have never used their weapons on duty. So what? When I get sworn onto a department, I won't be banking on statistics and odds to bring me home at the end of the day. That's why I personally try to train as regularly as possible so IF I ever have to draw my weapon to defend my life, I won't be relying on the mere fact that I have a badge on my chest... Unfortunately, some officers/cadets don't have the same outlook...

The gun culture of the Midwest (or any area not considered "big city") may very well lend itself to producing better shooters. But there were a handful of cadets in my class who never even touched a firearm until we went through weapons quals and training. They all turned out to be pretty decent shooters by the end of firearms training. I think its more a question of whether or not an officer or cadet is willing to sacrifice the time, energy, and money in order to develop and further hone their skills with firearms. Smaller cities and jurisdictions have the luxury of quality control in order to weed out officers who don't want to put forth effort. Big cities don't always have the same luxury...

[SMMAssociates]

... I think its more a question of whether or not an officer or cadet is willing to sacrifice the time, energy, and money in order to develop and further hone their skills with firearms. Smaller cities and jurisdictions have the luxury of quality control in order to weed out officers who don't want to put forth effort. Big cities don't always have the same luxury...

ArmyMedic90:

IMHO, the PD, whether large or small, has an obligation to train these guys.... Just because you have a Driver's License doesn't qualify you to chase the average BG in a vehicle....

However, the cost issues do impact the training. IMHO, paying for training instead of "neat toys" (like those "shotspotter" setups, or even red-light or speed cameras) is more important. But nobody asks me....

Most of us, though, shoot more, and probably better, than the average LEO. To some degree, perhaps, since it's a hobby, that's excusable, but the standards are way too low for LE....

Regards,

[ArmyMedic90]

Yes this is true. I'm currently going through the OPOTA curriculum in order to become an LEO. When the academy commander stated the amount of hours we would be training in order to qualify with firearms, I thought he was joking (low number)... What is even more ridiculous is the fact that Ohio puts their cadets through more firearms training hours than many other states in the country.

I believe we are in agreement though. I'm sure many officers couldn't hit anything if their lives depended on it... I'm told that many officers also fail to understand that marksmanship is a perishable skill and refuse to shoot unless its for their mandatory qualifications bi-annually. It's like some officers are scared to fire their weapons... Even in training scenarios. Scary that I might have to rely on some Barney Fife wannabe on a felony traffic stop someday....

Hooray....

[xpd54]

ArmyMedic90, were you at the Xenia range today?

[TSiWRX]

I believe we are in agreement though. I'm sure many officers couldn't hit anything if their lives depended on it... I'm told that many officers also fail to understand that marksmanship is a perishable skill and refuse to shoot unless its for their mandatory qualifications bi-annually. It's like some officers are scared to fire their weapons... Even in training scenarios. Scary that I might have to rely on some Barney Fife wannabe on a felony traffic stop someday....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... v89_3rrW8Y" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

^ Or to have a partner like that, covering you.

In the end, as with any other occupation/profession, to some, it's just another job. There are those who take pride in what they do, and those who simply couldn't care less.