Anyone going to Robert Vogel's class on April 15th?

[TSiWRX]

Just wondering if there's anyone from OFCC who will be attending Robert Vogel's class on April 15th, near Youngstown.



I'll be there!

[Jake]

Just how "near"?
Inquiring minds wanna know.

[TSiWRX]

Private range about 15 minutes outside of Youngstown.

The class had been booked by members of the 1911Addicts.com Forums, but several backed out, and area shooters were recruited to fill the slots. I was just wondering if any other OFCCers were going to be there.

[TSiWRX]

Turned out to be a really nice day for shooting - although there had been rain in the forecast, it'd stopped raining by the time the earliest of us showed up, and by the time the class started, the sun actually had started to peek through the clouds. It got a little warm in the afternoon, and more than a few of us got sun-burned, but wow, what a nice day to shoot, overall!

As for the class itself?

Holy cow! Eye-opening, to say the least.

I learned soooooooooooooo much, and left with so much more knowledge of both what I can improve on immediately, as well as what to work on for the days to come. It was well worth the money, well worth getting up well before dawn, and well worth the drive.

Although the aim of the class was "Defensive Pistol" based, Bob did set up some very basic courses for us to run through, and I must confess, it's addicting.

I don't think I have the time necessary to make competitive shooting a hobby - at least not for the time being - and that really bums me out , because I'm getting the feeling that to really improve, I may need to compete. Any of you more experienced shooters have anything to say about this?

[Flexmoney]

... , because I'm getting the feeling that to really improve, I may need to compete. Any of you more experienced shooters have anything to say about this?

Competing REALLY helps out the learning curve. It's not just the competition. You get to be around lots of other shooters. You see what works and what doesn't. It can be eye-opening, for sure.

It's a great environment for improvement.

[Jake]

Agree.

While I pretend I don't care where I place, I do.
But regardless of how I do, I just want to walk away with better proficiency.

[TSiWRX]

^ Thanks, guys, for your thoughts. Your sentiments are shared by several other experienced shooters in various other Forum communities - and yes, the answers have definitely changed my outlook on future training.

I think I will spend the rest of this year and the next continuing to focus on the fundamentals as well as to truly ingrain the defensive/tactical side of the equation - there's a few more skill-sets I'd like to pick-up, before starting to really work on "advancing with the gun."

After that, though, I think I will start to get in to competitions. I don't expect that I'll ever be a fast or excellent shooter , but I do want to shoot faster and better - like you said, Jake, I also want to continue to walk the path (even though I know it'll hurt my pride that I won't ever come in at the top half of the field).

With that said.......

Pictures!

I have no photo-Kung Fu, and I'm also not a big picture taker. I had my camera on me for quite a bit of the day, but I only took a few shots, and, surprisingly, no videos I'll also apologize for the outlinking of the photos, I'm too lazy to re-size them

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u259 ... 24x701.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

^ That's the majority of the group gathered-'round for some chit-chat, on a break.

No, that's not Vin Diesel.

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u259 ... 24x878.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

^ Vogel demonstrating his single-hand techniques.

He prefers to blade a bit more than what "tactical/defensive pistol" conventions currently favor, so as to get a more biomechanically stable platform/lock-out, but like he said, you've got to fit this one to your lifestyle: if you're LEO/Mil and you've got armor, you might want to square up more...but if you're a civilian running away from an active shooter, being a bit bladed can actually make you a smaller target in some ways.

Me? I really liked it. I need more practice on the reaction/support side, but on the gun/strong side, I've never shot as well, single-handed, so I am pretty sure that I'm going to be adopting this technique. And since I don't run around all day with body-armor or plates, I'll take the biomechanical advantage any time I can.

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u259 ... 24x653.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

^ Vogel on the 2-reload-2-reload-2 drill.

Take-home? I've got to get a timer, and start timing myself. I learned that a good competitor keeps track of his/her times, and there are benchmarks to meet for each set of motions.

Some may poo-poo this and say: "Oh, but that's for competition! You wouldn't need to time that in the real world, in a gun-fight!" I'll tell you what, Vogel and the other competitors weren't doing their reloads at their waist - they had perfect situational awareness - and they were *fast*. Time is Life. And yes, I want to hit those benchmarks for time.

As a quick aside, this was also the drill where I flubbed two things:

First, every time I inserted a fresh mag, I'd rack out the round that was in the chamber. :frusty: Muscle memory - and to me, while that was "OK," it still showed me how much shooting is a mind game. Once I settled down a bit, I got the drill down, but I'll confess to having racked-out about a half-dozen live rounds before I finally got my mind wrapped around it.

Second, I actually didn't fully seat the magazine *twice* on this drill. I've *_never_* had this problem before, on a non-admin. reload (where, as a fresh-to-shooting newbie, I did experience this issue a couple of times). Speed/emergency reload, tactical reload, I've *_never_* had this issue before.

To be honest, I was quite star-struck with Bob Vogel there, and with Bob Vogel running the timer behind my head? Yeah, even more nervous.

Vogel is such a nice, down-to-earth guy: he just chuckled when I told him that, during lunch. Bob then offered up his own "butterflies in the stomach" moment, a quick story of him at the championships in Greece...he made me laugh at him, and see that he's just as human as I am - and you know what? after lunch, I shot much better (OK, OK, the slalom course does NOT count! ).

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u259 ... 0x1024.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

^ So, that's me, the fat Chinese guy in the black shirt.

Before you ask, yes, that's how I conceal, but no, I wasn't running from-concealed in this class. I simply had my shirt tucked-in to my jeans for the shooting day, that's all. And yes, that's pretty much my standard outfit, EVERY day. If you see me, it's pretty much guaranteed that I'm going to be dressed exactly like that. Yes, I'm nerdy weird, OK?

That smile on my face is after having been awake for 12 hours. I'd gladly have paid twice as much for the day's worth of instructions that Vogel gave us. Awesome class.

[Flexmoney]

^ Thanks, guys, for your thoughts. Your sentiments are shared by several other experienced shooters in various other Forum communities - and yes, the answers have definitely changed my outlook on future training.

I think I will spend the rest of this year and the next continuing to focus on the fundamentals as well as to truly ingrain the defensive/tactical side of the equation - there's a few more skill-sets I'd like to pick-up, before starting to really work on "advancing with the gun."

After that, though, I think I will start to get in to competitions.

You killin' me.

Go ... shoot ... competitions. Now. It will help your learning curve.

[TSiWRX]

^ I did a little more poking around, and found this thread:

http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=59280" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm going to try.

[Flexmoney]

Good !!

You will have fun and pick up things.


I can suggest the USPSA match at Crooked Creek. ...a well established group of shooters..

By the way...ask Bob where and when he might be shooting local matches. It could be a bit of a drive, but you could probably squad up with him.

[TSiWRX]

Good !!

You will have fun and pick up things.


I can suggest the USPSA match at Crooked Creek. ...a well established group of shooters..

Only about an hour east, I'm definitely going to try. I can't make the 22nd (or the 21st New Shooters Orientation) as I have a preexisting conflict, but I'll try for May/June. Thanks for your encouragement!

By the way...ask Bob where and when he might be shooting local matches. It could be a bit of a drive, but you could probably squad up with him.

^ Wait, which Bob? I'm getting the feeling that Bob is the most common name in shooting sports! There were 3 at our class!

[pleasantguywhopacks]

I also occasionally rack out a live round after a mag seat. My 9L will drop slide on a full mag every single time.

When I switch to the 9c it never does and if I run it for a while I revert to racking after a mag seat on a emergency reload.

[TSiWRX]

^ Yep, I think that perfectly illustrates two points: (1) that as concealed-carriers, we need to run our carry gun (or an identical copy of it) and (2) that consistency is important.

Was I embarrassed that I kept flubbing that drill? Certainly. But that surface emotion is about all there was to it - I wasn't hung up on it, it didn't make my day worse, etc. To me, that was a quirk of the drill which did not matter that much because my main aim is to run my gun well, under stress, under "combat" conditions. The 2-reload-2-(rinse/repeat) drill is great for ingraining a smooth reload, but to me, without the gun going to slide-lock (as we'd practiced in Cerino's class), it's not realistic, and therefore, it didn't bother me that my times weren't "right" on that drill.

My initial fears about entering the competition world was that I would ingrain habits that would be counter to my "survival goals," if you will. Many of the competition shooters I've spoken to/e-comm'ed with agree that such potential pitfalls exist. But they also maintain that at my current skill level, I should be able to navigate my way around such concerns (as two quick examples, use-of-cover and reloads) so that I can use the competition venue - the stress of shooting against others and the stress of trying to beat the clock - to better my physical gun-skills.

As succinctly as possible: "I'm going to get out of it what I put in to it," is what one such experienced shooter said. I agree wholeheartedly, and am looking forward to pushing my limits and learning - and to getting better.