Signed up for first TDI Course!

[Tmade]

Do you guys clean your firearms after each day at the range, or did you leave them dirty and see if they'd malfunction? I plan on cleaning mine, since I'll never carry a dirty firearm, but it'd be interesting to see if I could push them to their failure point.

Personally I waited until I got back to the hotel to clean mine. I know some stayed there and cleaned theirs at the range, because the staff helped show some pointers on cleaning if you wanted them to, but I am familiar with mine and wanted to sit down in a nice cool hotel room and do it at my leisure.

Yeah, I loaded it up with my defensive ammo before I left and carried it back to the hotel dirty...if it fired fine thru all we put it thru....a few more rounds weren't going to hurt it until I got to clean it if I needed it.

I purchased a brand new one 3 days before the class and put about 50 rounds thru it before I went and averaged over 400 rounds each day. I wasn't worried about it being dirty, cause sometimes you may not have the opp to clean it and I too wanted to put a lot of stress on it and see how it went. It performed excellent and a year later mine is still running strong even after putting it thru the FNG event yesterday.

I did take a backup gun, in case any major malfunctions happened, same caliber and style I carry but never had to use it.

If I remember right I was requested to bring 1800 rounds of ammo, I think I shot close to 1400 over the 3 days. They will allow you to shoot as much as you want....shoot as much as you can and get the most out of the training you can. Thru the various stages they will allow you to repeat the stage as often as you wish, time allowing.

[TSiWRX]

The point is participate in the train like you would carry. Because let's face it, you're going to there to train to become more proficient in the way you carry...so why not use your carry gear and get the most out of it.

^ +1 on the "train as you'd fight."

If they allow you to use your carry gear, shooting from concealed, I'd do it.

There's a big difference, and I'm glad you're going to be keeping it real, soontobedeity .


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As for cleaning the gun.....

It's really up to you - if you know that you can get 2K rounds out of it between cleanings, then there's really no point, particularly if you want to see if you can run into malfunctions for the practice.

If you're not sure you can reach that round-count, I'd clean it in between the days if you want to concentrate more on class material - just so you minimize that potential problem.

[Brian D.]

At TDI for Fun 'n' Gun this weekend I went IWB, since it's getting to be the time of year I switch to that mode pretty excluisively. But I have done sessions there (and elsewhere) with an OWB rig. Thing to be consistent on is wearing the gun at about the same height, position and angle regardless of holster. This whole thing about muscle memory only working as long as you never change the position of the rig more than a half a micron (exaggerating for effect ) is a little over the top in my experience.

When you're at a match, practice session or class where you know there will be LOTS of draws/reholsters, an OWB is just flat easier to deal with. Unless you're wearing a shirt that tucks in...well, better than I've ever seen a shirt stay put while doing those draws...you'll be dealing with garment readjustment more often when using an IWB.

[TSiWRX]

^ I think it has a lot to do with both the experience-level of the shooter, as well as the gear itself.

You said that in your experience, it doesn't seem to matter all that much - but for someone like me, for example, a new shooter who does not have the same skill-set or the depth-of-skill/experience to call upon, the end result can well be exaggerated.

This past fall, I took, for the first time, an "intermediate" level pistol course. Much of the focus in the class was on the balance-of-speed-versus-accuracy. Precision and accuracy were demanded of us. I started off the day as I usually do, with my usual range gear: a full-sized XDm9 in an OWB Raven Phantom holster, set up to mimic the positioning and presentation of my usual daily IWB carry setup. After the lunch break, I decided heck, why not, let me give my carry gun and my carry setup a try: switching to a XDm9 3.8 Compact in my usual Pure Kustom Black Ops Pro IWB holster. I knew that draw-time would be compromised, but I really thought that I'd be right back where I'd left off, in terms of my actual shooting, but to my surprise, that was not the case...it took me nearly two-dozen shots to return to my pre-lunch baseline. No, I wasn't missing. I wasn't even going out of the 6-inch COM zone on the Magpul BSA target, but my shot grouping was just not as tight, and to me, that was unacceptable. Similarly, I found that I had specific garment-clearing considerations to think about - not only drawing the gun, but also accessing the spare magazines at my waist. These were all issues that had been invisible to me, despite the fact that, prior to that day, I had practiced in good-faith with my carry gun (approx. 7,500 rounds over the course of 7 months) as well as with my carry gear.

I think that for the beginning shooter or those who are new to concealed-carry, running one's carry gun/carry gear "as-is," with an eye towards the user's actual daily reality, can present valuable - if not critical - lessons.

[Brian D.]

Allen, unless every pair of pants you own/wear fit exactly the same, and have the belt loops in the exact same spots...I think you see where I'm going with that train of thought. For that (picayune) matter, switching to a gun with a slightly different grip frame shape, angle, or size changes how the hand makes initial contact. I'll go down this path a little further and quit, giving another personal example...

Since either a 1911 or Browning Hi Power fits in the same holsters for me, I don't have anything BHP-specific, as they are harder to find in the first place. So, when wearing either, I haven't changed holster or position. But of course the grip frames are a little different. During a draw it has never seemed to matter to my hand--and the brain that allegedly controls it. Now, the ambi safety on the Mark III Hi Powers is just a little smaller than even the standard one on a 1911. Again, I cannot ever remember my thumb failing to find and flick down any of them. But, by comparison the tiny safety on a pre Mark III BHP is nearly impossible for that same experienced, educated thumb to find in any sort of hurry. Hence, I no longer own--and certainly wouldn't care to tote--one of those.

Hope I'm not coming off wrong on this, hence the self-deprecating humor to show that I am in no way out of sorts, just trying to share.

[TSiWRX]

^ No, no, don't worry, you're not coming off wrong at all. I hope I'm not, either!

What I'm trying to say is that you're right - that those who stand absolutely by the "you've gotta have the same gun, same holster, same pants on every day" rule are taking it just a little too far (although, truth be told, I not only wear the same kind of pants every day, but also the same kind of shirt and pants - Old Navy el-cheapos FTW!!! http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid= ... =3&theater" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - that's me, the fat Chinese guy in the foreground, the second over from the right, [standing with my feet/legs together at Chris's request] black shirt and blue jeans, at Cerino's "Marksmanship Enhancement Clinic #1, back in February, and here's me again in his "#2 Clinic," two weekends ago, this time, I'm the first over from the right - http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid= ... =3&theater" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - same everything, with the exception of a different ARES Ranger Belt ..... yeah, I'm weird like that , but being an academic scientist means that I rarely have to dress like an adult!). Like you said, there's no way to insure that *everything* is *always* the same. There is going to be a little variability, day-to-day.

Even for a weirdo like me - someone who dresses the same every day, same kind of shirt, same kind of pants, same everything - I can tell you that yes, it's never quite completely the same, day in, day out, no matter how hard I may try. An older shirt may have shrunken a bit more. A newer shirt's fabric may be just a bit softer and fit a little looser. Getting out of the car, my pants/belt may actually rotate just a little. After some physical activity, maybe my pants dropped just a tad. It's never quite the same (and definitely not at the micron level! ).

But I also think that it's important that newcomers like me realize that there is something to be said for consistency, and that it can help make up for the areas where we may lag behind those who are more experienced or otherwise proficient - to, if you will, "bridge that gap."

Again using myself as an example (looks like we're both the "hope y'all can learn from our mistake!" type ), I know for a fact that me pulling from the OWB Raven, now - since it is set up to very closely approximate my IWB Pure Kustom - that the only thing that really makes a difference in draw-to-first-hit time is whether or not I need to clear cover clothing (this to include what kind of cover I'm wearing, as well as the technique I use to clear said cover layer). This is because over the course of the last year, I've diligently practiced my draw, and that includes the guidance and help of some really good instructors, too. But I also confess that earlier on in the timeline, this was not true, that I was better with the gear/setup with which I had practiced most.

I think that as the shooter gains more experience as well as proficiency, those aspects of one's skill can compensate for the differences in gear and setup.

For me, I think that as long as the gear/setup doesn't absolutely conflict with one-another (i.e. shooting a 1911 versus a Beretta 92, with the differences in the engagement of the slide safety; or, for example, shooting with a strong-side OWB on the range and in training, versus wearing a SOB or cross-draw in daily life [and having never trained with it]), it really shouldn't matter too badly, especially when experience and skills are added to the mix.

All this is to say that while I do strongly believe in the need for everyone to train with their carry gun and carry gear, in their usual street clothing, I also realize that there are practical limitations to this, and that, as one's skill level rises, there also becomes increasing flexibility to this, too (nevertheless, optimal performance comes with consistent practice and intimacy - an F1 driver's car is fitted to his every whim).

Furthermore, it should also be taken into account - in maintaining the line of thought of this particular topic, of-course! - the need for the student to realize his or her limitations in terms of being able to absorb the tremendous amount of material that a course like this will stuff into them, be it over just a few hours or over days. The student should pick gear which will allow him/her to focus on the materials taught: i.e. the gear should not hinder the learning experience.

[pleasantguywhopacks]

I kinda took what jeep was doing with his M&P a while back and seeing just how bad it has to get before it chokes. Well I have been shooting my 9L all winter with out cleaning it. Only adding a dab of shooters grease to the steel rail inserts sporadically. I'm guessing I had 1300 rounds before the FnG. Actually got a eye roll from the RSO doing the orientation safety check before the event when he saw the filthy gun.. I told him I was seeing how far I could push the gun I trust to save me. I had every thing there to clean it if I had too and a second gun if I broke it..
Then 300 more rounds at the event. It never had a hiccup. Shot the remaining 200 rounds I wanted to get rid of (Rem green box) tonight. Not a single issue. Cleaned it just after.


I say there is something to seeing what your gear will tolerate. Again a good idea to take a second gun.


My advice is to go in with a open mind and run the gear as hard as you can. This is not just a place to learn, it is a place to vet your gear. Then don't hesitate to make changes after honestly looking at your gear's durability and functional performance. It's your life after all.

Absorb as much TDI technique as you can and seriously give it thought and adopt what really works for you. I haven't discounted anything they taught me so far. Even changed platform after the handgun 1-3 when all day I struggled with what I thought was the bomb in self defense handgun up to then.

[Jake]

Train like you are going to carry.

At FnG on Saturday, I was grouped with a bunch of the Safety Officers who also are heavy into IDPA.
When I shot the first stage, there was an echo behind me..."Laser...laser...laser...".

One of them walked up to me and said, "Just so you know..." and I cut him off and finished his sentence for him.
"I'm aware that IDPA doesn't allow lasers." I added that I train the way I carry.
They should have a separate classification, but that's a different thread.
By the end of the day, I had received numerous compliments on my shooting (during the hostage stage, all my shots were clean head shots).

I've spent a lot of time shooting with lasers to the point where I wondered if I could shoot with out them.
I spent last summer and this winter doing all my range work without lasers to prove to myself that I don't have to rely on a laser.
Now, when I shoot (practice at the range) my 1911, I turn the laser off. On my G19, that's not an option (it's what I brought to shoot at FnG)

In fact, at a recent class I was teaching, my co- instructor commented that my laser was spot on while I demo'ed an exercise.
I told him I'd have to take his word as I couldn't see it at that distance as it was covered by my front sight.

Take advantage of your range time developing good (productive) muscle memory skills.

[jburtonpdx]

Train like you are going to carry.

Take advantage of your range time developing good (productive) muscle memory skills.

This and this.... Wow those 2 comments right there are worth everything else on the forum today. At least for me. Good stuff

looks like I messed up who the quotes are attributed to sorry about that but its all good stuff anyway...