38 Spcl vs 357 Mag

[mdad]

Can someone explain to me the difference in a 38 spcl +p and a 357 mag. as far as why the 357 is so much better.
Thanks

[MuzzleReport]

357 is loaded hotter, so higher velocity with the same projectile hence more energy down range.

A 357 can also shoot 38s so you get the best of both worlds, you cannot go the other way.

38 +P is loaded hotter than a 38 but less than a 357.

[boothdt]

.357 is just a .38 special with a stretched out case. That means more powder which means significantly higher velocities and therefore more overall energy and better jacket mushrooming.

Basically the .357 is a suped up .38

[TSiWRX]

Can someone explain to me the difference in a 38 spcl +p and a 357 mag. as far as why the 357 is so much better.
Thanks

"Better" is very relative.

However, to give yourself an instinctive feel for the difference between the two, go to a range that rents a "full-weight" .357-Magnum revolver, and shoot a cylinder of both cartridges...then rent out one of the lightweight "concealed carry friendly" .357-Magnum revolvers, and again put a cylinder of each downrange.

[dl1911]

A .357 has a higher velocity than a .38 Special even in +P. The case is longer and the cylinder on a .38 only revolver will not close if it has a .357 round in it. I don't have the manufacturers tables easily available, but from loading data for a 158gr bullet with the same powder the .357 will have a velocity of about 1,200 fps. A standard .38 Special comes in at 780fps while a +P .38 Special is 900 fps. Higher velocity means more energy/power.

[Jake]

Can't say .357 is necessarily "better".

If you can handle a .357 and make accurate follow up shots with it, it may be up your alley.
If you can't do that with the .357, then the .38 +p may be right up your other alley.

[SMMAssociates]

mdad:

I don't believe in "+P" loads....

Extra wear on the gun, potential over-penetration, etc....

However, if your gun's rated for it, just avoid a steady diet.

What bothers me is the guys & gals who buy uber-lightweight .38's or .357's and put +P loads in the former, or even full loads in the .357, and find that they can't stand shooting the thing. Unless they find a source of practice ammunition that's tolerable to shoot, those guns go into nightstand drawers, and are never to be seen again (and, worse, the owners don't practice with them).

Weight notwithstanding ('cause I'm big, but also because I just don't subscribe to the "it's too heavy" arguments for things like "all day wear", unless maybe for off-body wear), a good .38 or .357 snubby (I like the 3" J-frames in .38) will do a fine job for you with a good SD JHP load. The .357 is likely to be a bit better at the STOP game, and it might be a good idea to use SD loads with a polymer tip to help eventual expansion after penetrating clothing, but at short ranges, probably not much of an advantage over the .38.

(My "concealment" gun for many years, back when printing wasn't an issue, and there were no CPZ's to sneak up on you, was a 4" S&W M10HB. Six-shot K-frame revolver. About the same size as any of the full size M&P semi's you'll see around today. A tad bulky, but I was always confident with the thing. Today, I carry a semi-auto, but if I had to go with a revolver, a 3" J-frame - like the old Chief's Special - would make me happy.)

Overall, a .44Spl might be a better choice if you don't mind a larger gun, but do want a revolver. Pretty much the same ball as a .45 Long Colt or .45ACP, although a bit softer shooting. Really good knockdown, and good second shot performance. Put it in a hand-cannon like my buddy Joe's Ruger Vacquero (6", I think, and kinda heavy .44Mag) and it's a .22.... (OTOH, unless you're BIG, the .44Mag will put you on your backside if you're not used to it. I hurt myself with Joe's, and have no desire to blow up semi tractors anyway.... )

Bear in mind that the .38 is a black powder case, and used to be pretty well filled with powder. Today, they sort of wave the powder can over the casing and pop a bullet into it.... It's possible to load a .38 (or .357) case to the point where it'll blow up your gun, and scare the heck out of the one the guy beside you is carrying. You really don't want to do that ....

If you're used to a 9mm in a medium-sized frame, the .38 is quite pleasant in a similarly-sized gun. A little more snap as the gun gets smaller. As long as you stay off those ultra lightweights it'll be comfortable.

Regards,

[OhioPaints]

.357 is just a .38 special with a stretched out case. That means more powder which means significantly higher velocities and therefore more overall energy and better jacket mushrooming.

Basically the .357 is a suped up .38

As Stu mentioned, the .38 case is from the blackpowder days and there is more than enough room to add plenty of powder to blow the gun up. The ONLY reason the .357 is longer is to make sure no one puts a .357 round into a .38 special handgun that cannot handle the higher pressure.

The .38 special is a decent round, but the .357 is more powerful and is at the top of the list in effectiveness for stopping bad guys.

I don't believe in "+P" loads....

Extra wear on the gun, potential over-penetration, etc....

However, if your gun's rated for it, just avoid a steady diet.

Stu,

most modern .38 special handguns are designed as .357s so they are quite capable of handling the .38 +P rounds all day long.

I don't agree with the "over penetration" issue, the .38 +P isn't all that powerful. Everybody worries about a good hit overpenetrating but ignores that the majority of rounds don't hit the bad gun anyway

What bothers me is the guys & gals who buy uber-lightweight .38's or .357's and put +P loads in the former, or even full loads in the .357, and find that they can't stand shooting the thing. Unless they find a source of practice ammunition that's tolerable to shoot, those guns go into nightstand drawers, and are never to be seen again (and, worse, the owners don't practice with them).

I agree with you there! There is a proper recoil absorbing weight for every round and superlight .357s don't meet it! Poor choices IMO. I know one experienced shooter who bought a Scandium revolver and was afraid to even test fire it

I find my 3" Taurus 605 with Hogue rubber grips easy to shoot with full .357 ammo. IIRC, it's 23 oz and easy to carry and conceal.

[502ci]

I've fired .38+p ammunition through my .357 then immediately fired .357 rounds through it and just watching how the paper target moves when the .357 round passes through it tells me something...plus I can feel the difference in the palm of my hand.

Kinda unrelated to the original poster's question but I've noticed over the years that there are only a few people on this site that will actually carry a 11.4 oz .357 daily and actually target practice with it...

[Sevens]

The paper that you saw move/react to the shots fired at it likely had much more to do with the blast & concussion waves moving downrange than the bullet passing through the paper itself.

The difference between .38 Special and .38 Special +P is quite small.
The difference between either of those and .357 Magnum is quite large.

Besides the bullet velocity angle that's been discussed, another way to illustrate this point is the chamber pressures. According to SAAMI industry standards:
.38 Special runs at a max pressure of 17,500 PSI.
.38 Special +P runs at a max of 19,000 PSI.
.357 Magnum runs at a max peak pressure of 35,000 PSI.

It is correct that the only reason the .357 Magnum is l-o-n-g-e-r is to prevent them from being loaded in to .38 Special chambers. If all SAAMI standards were ignored, you could theoretically load a .357 Magnum cartridge hotter & faster because of the slight extra length, but if you followed the strict standards for .357 Magnum pressure, you could certainly replicate most (all?) .357 Magnum loads easily in .38 Special brass. The slight extra length is not used for horsepower, it is used to keep folks from grenading older .38 Special revolvers. This may not hold true for heavy-for-caliber loads (say, 180gr loads) but for common 110, 125 and 158 grain bullet loads, you can replicate .357 Magnum SAAMI max loads in .38 Special brass.

In practice, .38's and .357's are as different as night & day, in terminal performance, concussion, blast, noise, felt recoil, muzzle jump, stress on the handgun, flash, and in pretty much any measurable manner.

.357 Magnum out of a fairly large and/or heavy handgun is a lot of fun and a lot of power. Out of a smallish, light, short-barreled handgun, it runs the gamut from "harsh" to "obnoxiously violent" to "downright horrific."

IMNSHO, it is very rarely going to be a bad idea to purchase a .357 Magnum revolver if you can, and give yourself the option of the three different chamberings. All you (effectively) give up is you add a little weight to the gun for the option of being able to try any of the three.

[OhioPaints]

IMNSHO, it is very rarely going to be a bad idea to purchase a .357 Magnum revolver if you can, and give yourself the option of the three different chamberings. All you (effectively) give up is you add a little weight to the gun for the option of being able to try any of the three.

I agree, I don't think it makes sense to buy a -new- .38 special since the prices are usually identical to a .357 and the resale value of the .38 is lower.

However, if you are buying used, prices on a .38 should be lower than an equivalent .357

There are a some designs where there is no equivalent .357 to a .38 model. However where a manufacture makes both calibers in the same model gun, the weights are generally the same (S&W) although Ruger does show their .38 Special SP101 weighing 1 oz more than the .357!

Ken

[Morne]

Can someone explain to me the difference in a 38 spcl +p and a 357 mag. as far as why the 357 is so much better.
Thanks

Historically, the .357 Magnum developed an excellent reputation as a manstopper partially because it had the available kinetic energy to expand the primitive bullets of the day. Most everything else used by police worldwide at the time, which ranged from .32s to .38s to 9mms, was throwing out slugs that did not expand.

Nowadays we have much better bullet technology. You can get full expansion from the meager velocities of .38 Special or .45 ACP snubbies. So the performance edge of the .357 Magnum is not as critical as in the past. But still, if sub-optimal conditions exist the .357 Magnum can perform when others cannot.

Be sure to time yourself with both .38 Special and .357 Magnum. You'll probably find faster split times with the .38 Special. But when that 350-pounder wearing layers of bulky clothing corners you in a dark alley you're going to want the extra zip of the .357 Magnum.

[mreising]

I've fired .38+p ammunition through my .357 then immediately fired .357 rounds through it and just watching how the paper target moves when the .357 round passes through it tells me something...plus I can feel the difference in the palm of my hand.

Kinda unrelated to the original poster's question but I've noticed over the years that there are only a few people on this site that will actually carry a 11.4 oz .357 daily and actually target practice with it...

It is my everyday carry (S&W 360 Sc). It is not fun to shoot but it is manageable. If I ever have to use it for serious work I may have to preface the shooting by telling the bad guy that "this is going to hurt me more than it is you"

I do practice with it but I don't put a lot of rounds thru it; it is usually Gold Dot 357, 125 gr, but I have used 158 gr GDHP also.

[OhioPaints]

Can someone explain to me the difference in a 38 spcl +p and a 357 mag. as far as why the 357 is so much better.
Thanks

Nowadays we have much better bullet technology. You can get full expansion from the meager velocities of .38 Special or .45 ACP snubbies. So the performance edge of the .357 Magnum is not as critical as in the past. But still, if sub-optimal conditions exist the .357 Magnum can perform when others cannot.

But expansion is great advertising hype to take your money. Penetration is more critical than expansion. Expansion takes away from penetration. Sure, a .38 special can show great expansion, looks great in magazine advertising, but it won't penetrate deep enough. That's where the.357 shines, it can penetrate AND expand.

According to the FBI Quantico study on Wounding Ballistics, penetration is a critical issue. You can't incapacitate a bad guy with shallow penetration, no matter how pretty the bullet expands.

Ken

[Morne]

Can someone explain to me the difference in a 38 spcl +p and a 357 mag. as far as why the 357 is so much better.
Thanks

Nowadays we have much better bullet technology. You can get full expansion from the meager velocities of .38 Special or .45 ACP snubbies. So the performance edge of the .357 Magnum is not as critical as in the past. But still, if sub-optimal conditions exist the .357 Magnum can perform when others cannot.

But expansion is great advertising hype to take your money. Penetration is more critical than expansion. Expansion takes away from penetration. Sure, a .38 special can show great expansion, looks great in magazine advertising, but it won't penetrate deep enough. That's where the.357 shines, it can penetrate AND expand.

According to the FBI Quantico study on Wounding Ballistics, penetration is a critical issue. You can't incapacitate a bad guy with shallow penetration, no matter how pretty the bullet expands.

Kem

I understand and agree with everything you said EXCEPT for that.

There are several factors that determine penetration and velocity is only one of them. Cross-sectional density is another and is very critical. That's why for a given caliber the heavier rounds, even if they have less kinetic energy, tend to be the better penetrators. I agree that some of the old 110-gr HP loads in .38 Special might very well not make it. But the modern 125-gr and heavier loads are no slouches. The heavier the better.

And yes, I carry .357 Magnum, in 158-gr JHP flavor, but usually only in the summer. For winter carry I still like the trusty old .45 ACP.