***DON'T CALL AHEAD!*** (Required reading)
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***DON'T CALL AHEAD!*** (Required reading)
With the recent law change allowing concealed carry in a Class D establishment, there has been a flurry of activity on these boards relative to the posting status of your favorite establishments that have a Class D license. Based on OFCC's years of experience and the experience of MANY who have been posting here for, again, literally YEARS, I feel it is time to reiterate some critical advice:
If you are wondering whether your favorite restaurant or pub is posted..
DO NOT CALL AHEAD!
Let me repeat that a little less subtly...
DO NOT FREAKIN CALL THEM AHEAD!
Seriously, don't do it. Here's why...
1) You are reminding someone that they CAN post who might not have ever considered it. That screws things up for the rest of us.
2) You are essentially extending the length of time that this law change stays in the front of the minds of restaurant owners/managers. The sooner this becomes a non-issue--like it has everywhere else--the better. But if people are constantly calling...then it will take longer.
3) Why call in the first place? Do you call EVERY BUSINESS that you intend to visit? The new law treats the posting of a Class D like the posting of any other business--and you should, too. Just go. If you see a sign, don't go in...or leave a NGNM card. This is very important:
IF YOU DON'T SEE A SIGN, DON'T ASK TO "BE SURE"!
Again, a little less subtly...
IF THERE IS NO CONSPICUOUS SIGN, SHUT UP AND ENJOY YOUR MEAL!
The practice of calling ahead and asking if a business--any business--is posted has very little upside but a HUGE potential downside for the rest of us.
Oh...and since I was reminded of this by Cruiser, THIS rule also applies:
DO NOT THANK A BUSINESS FOR NOT POSTING!
Our "thanks" is in the form of our present and continued business. If they post, that business goes away.
Seriously, I am so tempted to ban the next person I see doing something like this!
If you are wondering whether your favorite restaurant or pub is posted..
DO NOT CALL AHEAD!
Let me repeat that a little less subtly...
DO NOT FREAKIN CALL THEM AHEAD!
Seriously, don't do it. Here's why...
1) You are reminding someone that they CAN post who might not have ever considered it. That screws things up for the rest of us.
2) You are essentially extending the length of time that this law change stays in the front of the minds of restaurant owners/managers. The sooner this becomes a non-issue--like it has everywhere else--the better. But if people are constantly calling...then it will take longer.
3) Why call in the first place? Do you call EVERY BUSINESS that you intend to visit? The new law treats the posting of a Class D like the posting of any other business--and you should, too. Just go. If you see a sign, don't go in...or leave a NGNM card. This is very important:
IF YOU DON'T SEE A SIGN, DON'T ASK TO "BE SURE"!
Again, a little less subtly...
IF THERE IS NO CONSPICUOUS SIGN, SHUT UP AND ENJOY YOUR MEAL!
The practice of calling ahead and asking if a business--any business--is posted has very little upside but a HUGE potential downside for the rest of us.
Oh...and since I was reminded of this by Cruiser, THIS rule also applies:
DO NOT THANK A BUSINESS FOR NOT POSTING!
Our "thanks" is in the form of our present and continued business. If they post, that business goes away.
Seriously, I am so tempted to ban the next person I see doing something like this!
Chris
Crushing the First Amendment, one post at a time!
"If you walk out of your house carrying your gun (openly or otherwise) and you DO NOT fully understand the law, then you are NOT completely armed..."
Crushing the First Amendment, one post at a time!
"If you walk out of your house carrying your gun (openly or otherwise) and you DO NOT fully understand the law, then you are NOT completely armed..."
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Re: ***DON'T CALL AHEAD!*** (Required reading)
I second that motion!!!!charben wrote:Seriously, I am so tempted to ban the next person I see doing something like this!
Seriously, very informative post and one that should be followed by all concealed carriers.
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I am not a lawyer. My answers are based on research, knowledge, and are generally backed up with facts, the Ohio Revised Code, or the United States Code.
Ohio Concealed Carry Classes in S/W Ohio
http://www.ProShootersTraining.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I am not a lawyer. My answers are based on research, knowledge, and are generally backed up with facts, the Ohio Revised Code, or the United States Code.
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Re: ***DON'T CALL AHEAD!*** (Required reading)
charben wrote: Seriously, I am so tempted to ban the next person I see doing something like this!
Just in case someone missed it.
It is so incredibly frustrating when people do this. Even in States where posting doesn't carry the weight of law it is still obnoxious, and creates an issue out of a non-issue. In fact, I've now included a link to this thread in my signature.
If you aren't comfortable going out with your firearm, leave it at home in your safe.
Required reading for newbies: DO NOT CALL AHEAD. EVER.
"If man asks for many laws it is only because he is sure that his neighbor needs them; privately he is an unphilosophical anarchist, and thinks laws in his own case superfluous."- Will Durant
Proud member of GeorgiaCarry.org, and The Second Amendment Foundation
"If man asks for many laws it is only because he is sure that his neighbor needs them; privately he is an unphilosophical anarchist, and thinks laws in his own case superfluous."- Will Durant
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Re: ***DON'T CALL AHEAD!*** (Required reading)
Chris is right stay quiet and it will blow over.The less it is brought up the better.
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Re: ***DON'T CALL AHEAD!*** (Required reading)
I remember when I first started to carry. It's human nature to want to know that we are both legal and welcome. Focus on the former and disregard the latter. If you don't see a sign, you have met the requirement for being legal - period. If the sign is back behind the customer service desk, (or somewhere,) it's not our job to keep looking until we find it. It is their responsibility to post in a conspicuous location if they expect us to see it. If not - see no evil, hear no evil. You have to knowingly violate the posting to be in real legal jeopardy. To clarify, a poorly posted location is still valid. Even a non-posted location with a verbal denial to carry is a valid prohibition. But only once you know about it or were told. If you don't see / aren't told, you aren't knowingly violating anything. Get the picture?
Some businesses want it both ways. They don't want an ugly picture of a gun to be the first thing every customer sees. But they also want to be able to tell anti-gun customers who ask if they ban guns, "Yes", to appease them. So they may post in an obscure location but have an official policy of "no guns". Assuming my firearm is concealed, it becomes a game of don't ask, don't tell.
Folks new to carrying feel this vagueness puts them in legal jeopardy - it doesn't. If someone notices you are carrying, they can ask you to leave. You must then do so without delay or debate. It's that simple.
Non-enumerated CPZ's are one example where ignorance IS an excuse. It's a game we all have to learn to play, not because we cheat, but because businesses do, in order to play both sides.
Some businesses want it both ways. They don't want an ugly picture of a gun to be the first thing every customer sees. But they also want to be able to tell anti-gun customers who ask if they ban guns, "Yes", to appease them. So they may post in an obscure location but have an official policy of "no guns". Assuming my firearm is concealed, it becomes a game of don't ask, don't tell.
Folks new to carrying feel this vagueness puts them in legal jeopardy - it doesn't. If someone notices you are carrying, they can ask you to leave. You must then do so without delay or debate. It's that simple.
Non-enumerated CPZ's are one example where ignorance IS an excuse. It's a game we all have to learn to play, not because we cheat, but because businesses do, in order to play both sides.
Last edited by muxtech on Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ***DON'T CALL AHEAD!*** (Required reading)
Thank you, I'm new and found it very silly when I noticed people were calling ahead ....
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Re: ***DON'T CALL AHEAD!*** (Required reading)
charben and muxtech have summed it up pretty nicely here.
OLTCACH holders are not required to seek out any signing. If the signs are hidden away and you didn't see it, and no one told you, you would not be violating any law. If you are "found out" in a CPZ, you merely have to leave without incident.
Provided you really didn't see any signs of course... or didn't read on an internet forum about new CPZs...
OLTCACH holders are not required to seek out any signing. If the signs are hidden away and you didn't see it, and no one told you, you would not be violating any law. If you are "found out" in a CPZ, you merely have to leave without incident.
Provided you really didn't see any signs of course... or didn't read on an internet forum about new CPZs...
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
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Re: ***DON'T CALL AHEAD!*** (Required reading)
So...what you are saying is, if I understand it right, is you would like people not to call ahead?charben wrote:With the recent law change allowing concealed carry in a Class D establishment, there has been a flurry of activity on these boards relative to the posting status of your favorite establishments that have a Class D license. Based on OFCC's years of experience and the experience of MANY who have been posting here for, again, literally YEARS, I feel it is time to reiterate some critical advice:
If you are wondering whether your favorite restaurant or pub is posted..
DO NOT CALL AHEAD!
Let me repeat that a little less subtly...
DO NOT FREAKIN CALL THEM AHEAD!
Seriously, don't do it. Here's why...
1) You are reminding someone that they CAN post who might not have ever considered it. That screws things up for the rest of us.
2) You are essentially extending the length of time that this law change stays in the front of the minds of restaurant owners/managers. The sooner this becomes a non-issue--like it has everywhere else--the better. But if people are constantly calling...then it will take longer.
3) Why call in the first place? Do you call EVERY BUSINESS that you intend to visit? The new law treats the posting of a Class D like the posting of any other business--and you should, too. Just go. If you see a sign, don't go in...or leave a NGNM card. This is very important:
IF YOU DON'T SEE A SIGN, DON'T ASK TO "BE SURE"!
Again, a little less subtly...
IF THERE IS NO CONSPICUOUS SIGN, SHUT UP AND ENJOY YOUR MEAL!
The practice of calling ahead and asking if a business--any business--is posted has very little upside but a HUGE potential downside for the rest of us.
Seriously, I am so tempted to ban the next person I see doing something like this!
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -Thomas Jefferson
"If stupidity weighed an ounce and gullibility a gram, the population of this country would create a black hole that would swallow the planet."
"If stupidity weighed an ounce and gullibility a gram, the population of this country would create a black hole that would swallow the planet."
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Re: ***DON'T CALL AHEAD!*** (Required reading)
Seriously, though, I think this is a very important point Charben brought up. The less these restaurants think about the new law the better. I went to my first class D restaurant today and quickly checked the door and walla no post so I went in. No one knew, no one could tell and I had a good lunch with my wife. There is a difference between "knowingly" and playing detective.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -Thomas Jefferson
"If stupidity weighed an ounce and gullibility a gram, the population of this country would create a black hole that would swallow the planet."
"If stupidity weighed an ounce and gullibility a gram, the population of this country would create a black hole that would swallow the planet."
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Re: ***DON'T CALL AHEAD!*** (Required reading)
Good post! Unfortunately.. I'm betting that in general, the type who come on and make a first post about how they called ahead or asked for the manager to be sure they could carry... also aren't the type to read the sticky'ed topics at the top of the page. Still, if we can stop just some of them.
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Re: ***DON'T CALL AHEAD!*** (Required reading)
Oh! And DO NOT THANK THEM FOR NOT POSTING!
Abandon ye all HOPE!
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Re: ***DON'T CALL AHEAD!*** (Required reading)
Right. Our "thank you" is in the form of our business.Cruiser wrote:Oh! And DO NOT THANK THEM FOR NOT POSTING!
I think I'll add that to the original post! Thanks, Cruiser!
Chris
Crushing the First Amendment, one post at a time!
"If you walk out of your house carrying your gun (openly or otherwise) and you DO NOT fully understand the law, then you are NOT completely armed..."
Crushing the First Amendment, one post at a time!
"If you walk out of your house carrying your gun (openly or otherwise) and you DO NOT fully understand the law, then you are NOT completely armed..."
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Re: ***DON'T CALL AHEAD!*** (Required reading)
I wrote a response to this, and then deleted it.
Let me just say I'm LMAO
Let me just say I'm LMAO
Ain't activism fun?
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"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington
"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
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Re: ***DON'T CALL AHEAD!*** (Required reading)
Right, we'll stay here until you get back.
//Monty Python reference...trust me, it's funny if you like Monty Python.
//Monty Python reference...trust me, it's funny if you like Monty Python.
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Information posted in these forums is my personal opinion only. It is not intended, nor should it be construed, as legal advice.
Information posted in these forums is my personal opinion only. It is not intended, nor should it be construed, as legal advice.
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Re: ***DON'T CALL AHEAD!*** (Required reading)
+1 (and pass it along to those you know who carry and don't frequent this forum!)
U.S. Army 1968 - 1971
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ALWAYS be aware of the letter of the law, because THEY may not be! --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWLxPC6YKlA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
5th SFGA, 1st SF
Republic of Vietnam, March 1969 to May 1971
ALWAYS be aware of the letter of the law, because THEY may not be! --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWLxPC6YKlA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;