OhioCCW Forums Changes

[gmhiggins]

Case in point: Some people believe that the repeated open carry walks in Lake County caused a property that turned out to be private property to get posted. Some people who have open carried into certain establishments have caused those establishments to post "No Guns" signs for all of us.

One of the locations of my employer was robbed back in December. They put up a "No Guns" sign - because "that's what keeps us from getting robbed". People are either going to post them or aren't. I'm not disagreeing that there is a possibility that someone OC'ing could make a new CPZ, I'm merely stating people will do it for the silliest reasons.

I wasn't involved in any of the Highway project at all, so I have no idea what you're referring to other than the fact that we did one. I'm not sure why you were deemed "not qualified" - did you refuse to come without a gun? I believe that was a mandate of ODOT which we agreed to, so if you chose not to, nothing I can do about it.

I do thank you for your effort but if you're going to hold an ODOT rule against us (and I'm really speculating here) that seems unfair.

I'm another person who has sent PM's asking "What can I do to help?" and received no response. I'm proud to say though, there have been signs removed in my area, and I've helped educate a handful of people on OC, CC, and firearms.

Needing to be deemed worthy of organizing a meet in greet in my area, though, does not and will not sit well with me. While I understand that you want to cover the OFCC's backside, a simple disclaimer might be in order. Giving "permission" to organize could be construed as a sanctioned, official OFCC meet. I don't think at the Cleveland meet the name OFCC was even said out loud.

[Mindbender14]

Soooo. Just to be clear ( I might have missed it).

No non-firearms political discussion even in Kirchner's corner?

[Jake]

Soooo. Just to be clear ( I might have missed it).

No non-firearms political discussion even in Kirchner's corner?

Correct.

[William Bonney]

[*] Changes to the For Sale forums are coming later this month - more news later.

On a lighter note.

This is the one that worries me!

I've received more private emails about THIS issue that I have negative responses about the other policy changes. I probably shouldn't have left the dangling "more news later" out there, but at the time the original post was made I was trying not to hold back on things I knew would be coming down the pike but hadn't finalized yet.

To quash all of the myths up front for those who don't click the above link:

Most importantly: There are no intentions to change what items you may sell on the forums at all
Simply put: Unlimited NEW listings of items for sale will soon be a benefit of / extended to OFCC membership.

If you want the full details, go here: http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=50596" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you have items already listed and you're not a member, do not panic. They will not be removed (unless you're selling a truck load of magazines or something)

Thank you very much for the information and the reasoning for the changes. I think it is totally fair and may encourage more paid memberships.
The for sale section is a great benefit for everyone here. A paid membership is a very small price to pay for the opportunity to list your items to a very focused group, many of which have proof of not being a convicted felon.

Thanks again for the clarification.

Now, carry on with the heated passionate discussion of the other changes.

[gilly32]

As far as the political talk is concerned, this was a judgement call by the Coordinators, the Moderators, and the BOD. It is very similar to the decision made years ago to forbid the discussion of religion on these forums. We are trying to get the forums to better reflect the mission of this organization and that mission is dedicated to firearms rights. To be clear, the forums are an extension of OFCC...not the other way around. We believe that we will have a more attractive forum for more people by making these changes.

Thank you for your patience as we go through this...

Why can't the political forum be set up like the OC forum, where access is only granted through a login? If some members don't want to venture into these discussions they can click elsewhere. Also, by requiring a login it prevents guests, prospective members, or other outside parties from participating. I think this is a compromise that can satisfy both sides of the argument. The mission of the organization can still be reflected through the open forums, but the desire of some members to have political discussions can be maintained by limiting access.

[Javelin Man]

I hate to be the voice of reason here... so I won't. I did not like reading some of the opinions here about SB 5, but I learned a ton as I'm sure many of the members here learned from postings of people voicing opinions against SB 5. I hope I was able to clear up some misconceptions and mistruths about the teachers unions and where we stand on some issues and why. The other side was enlightening also and that's how the legislature should work, lay both sides out, get irritated, name calling, etc., then sit down and start working on compromises.

Without a forum discussion like we had, many of us would have missed out on the discussion and laying out of facts and opinions. I for one would be poorer for the discussion. I'll also be poorer after the legislation passes, but that's a different discussion and one that won't be allowed on the "new improved" forums.

There will be more important issues going through congress in the future and it will be a shame that we can't discuss it and have about 6000 informed voters and citizens instead of informing an opinion from what we hear from the lamestream media. This forum is like FoxNews, giving us unbiased news, not news that is spoonfed to us.

[muxtech]

.Oh, and Jeff, the 'no volunteers thing', really old. I wasn't qualified to pick up trash on your stretch of highway. But I volunteered.

ODOT required advance registration of participants for the adopt a highway program. There was a cut-off date per ODOT. Some volunteers who heard about it after the cut off date could not be signed up. Too bad too. We needed more help. It was a bear.

And that was like two years ago.

[cgs500]

Question on M&G's

Last fall I hosted a little gathering of pre-screened folks from another board at my place. We had a fire with a grate to throw burgers, steaks, chops or chicken on to cook whatever someone wanted to bring. My wife made a couple of sides and we supplied drinks. I have a little range(since widened) so we did some rifle and handgun shooting. Very informal get together..

I was thinking of doing something like that again opened to this board. My questions are: how do I need to run the idea past OFCC? Since this is at my private property would I have final say on who attends or do I need to open it to any and everyone?

Thanks!

[Sevens]

re: new rules in the For Sale/Trade forum

I've received more private emails about THIS issue that I have negative responses about the other policy changes....

Most importantly: There are no intentions to change what items you may sell on the forums at all
Simply put: Unlimited NEW listings of items for sale will soon be a benefit of / extended to OFCC membership.

While I understand that you hope to make it a benefit to members that they'll be allowed to sell with a membership, what you have ultimately done (it seems to me) is to really hurt everyone's chance at a good purchase simply because only members may post items for sale.

I get the idea of making a benefit to membership -- but that's not how it feels. It feels like members will have many less items they have a chance at buying.
Really. I'd really like to see the folks in charge take a second and much longer look at this.

While so many of the other changes seem to be directed purely at the protection and betterment of the organization, this one seems to want to benefit the org only by spurring someone on the fence to become a member... but at the cost of everyone who hopes to buy items from OFCC Classified.

If my take is inaccurate, I'm happy to hear it. I just don't think that it is.

[AlanM]

What about the widow of a gun owner that is steered here to sell her husband's guns off to people that she is pretty sure are not felons?
She has to become a member of an organization she has no interest in, spend money she may or may not be able to afford just to have the chance to, maybe, sell these guns without being taken to the cleaners.

[Cruiser]

Changes to the For Sale forums are coming later this month - more news later.

I say it is about time!

[daddy]

Personally I think the for sale thing is backwards.

They should have it to where members are the only ones who can buy items. That opens the market to anyone who might happen to stumble accross the site looking for a place to sell things and gives members first dig at anything that pops up.

How do you implement that? No idea. Probably not possible.

What I suspect they will do now is make it that "site supporter" and above are the only ones who can create a new topic, but anyone can respond. That is easy - but not really benifiting the members any. There are lots of free sites out there to list items.

[soontobedeity]

While I may not have participated in many, I certainly enjoyed reading the various political discussion threads. I'll miss them.

[evan price]

I'd like to take a moment to ask y'all to take a deep breath.
OK?

We are not going to stop OC events.

What we want to avoid is people going off half-cocked and running out and doing something without thinking about the consequences or having a plan.

There have been a couple times so far when people have reported problems- whatever they were- and a bunch of people in their effort to help and to "do something" wound up getting further involved than they should have- through calls, letters, or OC walks, whatever- and this muddies the waters. If OFCC is getting involved then the contact needs to be done through SANCTIONED OFCC channels. If we have five forumites jumping on the phone and calling the Engagement, Ohio PD and demanding to speak to the chief, asking for copies of cruiser video, 911 tapes, sending letters, etc. well that waters down teh message and it makes it look like we have no 'control' over our members.

I know my use of the word CONTROL may have offended or surprised some people. I certainly got a lot of PMs about it. No, that doesn't mean a shock collar. What that means is we have to have the ability to CONTROL and DIRECT the actions of our members in the same way a school teacher controls and directs students. Let's face it- when you are talking about people like us- 2A advocates, engineers, sports fans, Tea Partiers, political activists, electricians, truck drivers, survivalists, hunters, whatever type of demographic each of us happens to inhabit- getting us all to simultaneously decide to agree on an action is a major undertaking- like herding cats, so to speak. HECK, even agreeing on a date to meet together is a major accomplishment!!!

You may or may not like to hear the word "control". But when you belong to an organization like OFCC you (we) need to understand that we are all agreeing that a certain set of initiatives and common goals needs to be agreed on. The organization needs to reflect those goals and go about achieving them in the best possible way.

There will always be those who want more, stronger, direct action and those who want quiet, behind-the-scenes, indirect action and it is impossible to follow both directions at once. If we agree- as an organization- to follow a certain path, and then some members of the organization decide that that's not what they want to do and go do their own thing- it means we don't have a strong organization!

Hence the need for control.

OC events are very good ways to get media attention, government attention, and enhance the knowledge of the general populus. If they are started at the drop of a hat for any reason whatesoever and 3-4 guys show up, where's the impact? Where's the spectacle? It's easy for a department that is unfavorable to go round up and lock up a few guys if they want. If you look at the OFCC events, the participators outnumber LEOs by a large factor. I'm not saying we engage in threats. I am saying that when OFCC calls for and OC event, we by-God-dang-it get an OC EVENT. We need to be able to field a strong turnout- like the Statehouse crowd, like the other OC events- and not just a couple people who can be ignored as cranks.

If it helps, think of it like a military organization. We make plans to invade France at Normandy. If your unit decides we aren't making a good enough plan you can't just decide to go ashore at Aquitane and work your way east to Berlin.



As far as the other changes- we want to focus the forums to specific goals. Jeff Kirchner's Korner will be the place for all the discussion, rambling, Alan's cat pictures, what happened at a robbery in some other state, sports bragging, and general venting. Political discussions have gotten somewhat out of hand with regard to a couple specific people and rather than just enact sanctions we decided that certain discussions- like religion for example- are just not appropriate here. We all know Obama sucks. Do we need to post about it more? I'm not going to be rigidly enforcing off topic posting as long as it isn't going too far into the weeds. If we start a topic about what sort of shotgun is best for Cowboy 3-gun, I'm probably not going to allow a sub-conversation about which sort of microwave oven is the best in that discussion and that will get chopped out to a new topic.

I monitor several other forums and always look for mention of OFCC. I know there are those who feel OFCC is 'against religion' somehow because we don't let people talk about it. Nothing is farther from the truth. We just don't want a discussion that has nothing to do with firearms freedoms and has in the past led to people getting angry, saying things they shouldn't, and getting banned. Politics is pretty much the same thing. We are all political beings no matter how hard we try not to be. We just think that perhaps it's time for a break on politics.

As far as OC goes, if you want to plan a sanctioned OC event (sanctioned meaning it has the blessing and support of OFCC) we just want to know about it first, what are the goals, who is organizing it, etc. There's been a lot of impromptu OC events that fizzled. Heck, I know of a couple where the organizer even bailed out of attending their own event! This is a fine example of the need for CONTROL. If you want to go out with some folks and carry your guns, heck, that's what makes this state nice (as long as no booze is involved, but hopefully that gets fixed real quick soon). We're not going to tell you who to associate with, or where to go. Just please don't call yourselves an OFCC Open Carry Event unless we are sanctioning the event.

I'll bring up the political discussions with the Coordinators and see about making a specific subforum that requires OFCC membership to reach. I will warn y'all that if this happens it will probably be heavily moderated to exclude attacks, bashing, flame wars, etc. and knowing how people can get excited quickly I would hate to have someone lose their access over a silly comment. On another forum I moderate two long term posters wound up in a discussion that got hot and heavy and in the end one got perma-banned and the other got 90 days off. Why? One of them decided to call the other one's wife a couple of words that if it were said in public would have invited a knuckle sandwich. The other party responded with the insult-throwers address and a thinly veiled threat to wait for the other guy with a firearm. These guys had been active posters for over 6 years. Lots of knowledge in this specific area of interest, lost.

I'd hate to see that happen here!

As far as the For-Sale forum changes goes, I know that certain posters log in here for the only purpose fo selling guns. It seems another Ohio .org does not allow gun sales and they basically tell their memebrs to make a throwaway account here to advertise their guns. I also know a certain couple of people who are acting as unlicensed FFLs and don't post anywhere except in FOR SALE forums. While having things for sale is great for all of us, we are not in the business of providing advertising space. It's offered as a courtesy for our forum users and members.

I expect there will be clarifications on this ruling sometime in the future. I'll ask that for long-time members of the Forums but not the .org, can we allow their postings if they are approved by me or a co-ord. I don't know how vBulletin works enough to see if this can be set up by seniority date. All I can do is ask.


What I am asking everyone now is to take a deep breath and not get hasty- see what happens before anyone gets too wound up. I forsee there won't be any major changes, we'll still be the OFCC Forums, just slightly more focused.

[mropencarry]

So when I see stray talk of HB45 I will do the appropriate thing and report it immediately. Because that is all about politics.