Private trade/sale - Bill of Transfer?

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ohiodff
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Private trade/sale - Bill of Transfer?

Post by ohiodff »

Does anyone do any kind of Bill of Sale or Bill of Transfer when selling guns privately? I've got a couple I think I may move, but the last thing I need in my life is some LEO knocking on my door years from now wanting to know the whereabouts of a gun I purchased X years ago but sold or traded.

How do you protect yourself? I know that in Ohio the seller has no legal obligation to "check out" the buyer and short of actually knowing the buyer is ineligible to buy/own firearms the seller has no liability, but as stated before, I prefer to limit my opportunities to end up on the wrong end of an anal probe involving hardware I at one time possessed.
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Re: Private trade/sale - Bill of Transfer?

Post by sodbuster95 »

Would you insist on a "bill of sale" if you sold a hunting knife, an ax, a saw, a screwdriver, a tire iron, etc.? All of those items have the potential to be used as a weapon.

In Ohio, it is entirely lawful to transfer a firearm privately between 2 residents of the state. When I sell a firearm privately, I ask to see an Ohio driver license and sufficient cash to pay for the gun. As far as I'm concerned, that's good enough for me. Occasionally, a buyer will show a CHL instead of a driver license, but I don't believe I've ever asked for one. I have never made a bill of sale for a private transfer.

If law enforcement were to ever question me about a firearm I once owned, I would give the same information I might have about a hunting knife, an ax, a saw, a screwdriver, a tire iron, etc. Specifically, I sold it and, as a result, no longer have any information as to the current status. That assumes, of course, that I chose to answer any questions posed to me by a law enforcement officer, which is unlikely.
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Re: Private trade/sale - Bill of Transfer?

Post by Gramps »

I have bought several guns face to face with private sales from online sellers. All have been content seeing my CCL.
Selling is a different story for me.
Although I don't part with many of my firearms I have sold a few to local friends.
If I were to sell to a stranger I would get a picture of a valid Ohio picture ID and keep it on file for a long time with notes of what (with serial numbers) when and where.
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Re: Private trade/sale - Bill of Transfer?

Post by willbird »

if your really worried pay a local FFL $25 to run it across their books, then it is their baby.
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ohiodff
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Re: Private trade/sale - Bill of Transfer?

Post by ohiodff »

sodbuster95 wrote:Would you insist on a "bill of sale" if you sold a hunting knife, an ax, a saw, a screwdriver, a tire iron, etc.? All of those items have the potential to be used as a weapon.
I didn't indicate I insist on one, I am asking a simple question. Why so combative?

None of those things you list have serial numbers that are recorded by the seller as having been originally transferred to me.
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Re: Private trade/sale - Bill of Transfer?

Post by DontTreadOnMe »

ohiodff wrote:How do you protect yourself? I know that in Ohio the seller has no legal obligation to "check out" the buyer and short of actually knowing the buyer is ineligible to buy/own firearms the seller has no liability, but as stated before, I prefer to limit my opportunities to end up on the wrong end of an anal probe involving hardware I at one time possessed.
Well as far as protecting yourself, the bill of sale thing doesn't do that either and there are some real-world concerns with it. Identity theft is a growing and serious concern. From the buyer's perspective, what assurance do they have that their personal information on that form is going to be kept safe in your possession? I once had a guy surprise me at the point of sale by pulling out such a form and ask to write down my drivers license number. No chance.

What I do is a get a sense for the buyer. Get a name. Do they have a CHL? If so, that's as good as a NICS check (well Ohio CHL anyway) so you've done as much of a "background check" as local gunshops would do. I look at it and see that it looks like the person I'm dealing with. Done. If no CHL I do ask the person to show me their d/l to confirm they're an Ohio resident. Am I required to do that? No, but I did have one sale go south after asking that and it's such an easy thing to check (view d/l if no CHL).
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Re: Private trade/sale - Bill of Transfer?

Post by rimfireOH »

I used to offer a bill of sale when doing a FTF but no one ever took me up on it, so I stopped.
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Re: Private trade/sale - Bill of Transfer?

Post by djthomas »

ohiodff wrote:I didn't indicate I insist on one, I am asking a simple question. Why so combative?

None of those things you list have serial numbers that are recorded by the seller as having been originally transferred to me.
You'll find that some folks have strong opinions when it comes to guns and generating more paperwork than is legally required. If you were to insist on doing a bill of sale you might find some people unwilling to buy from you. That doesn't mean they have nefarious intent, they just oppose the idea of legally unnecessary documentation.

Having said that I don't know that a bill of sale will really protect you all that much. If the gun gets traced to you the cops are coming to your door and asking questions, whether you have a bill of sale or not. Sure it'd be great if you had a BoS to show but it's not legally required and who's to say you didn't just make it up anyway? It's not like they're certified records. You could always remember the guy's name and town from his DL and how you made contact (e.g. cell phone #) and write it down in your own records after the sale. That's something the cops could run down if the situation called for it.

And as Don'tTreadOnMe points out by you retaining someone's PII you have a moral obligation to protect that information. At the end of the day it's a risk decision for both the buyer and the seller to make.

Personally I've never done a BoS but my private transfers have been limited to relatives and friends. I do them so infrequently I can recite them all, even the ones from 20 years ago. I've found that the real solution is to stop selling guns. Just buy another safe.
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Re: Private trade/sale - Bill of Transfer?

Post by Mr. Glock »

Gramps wrote:I have bought several guns face to face with private sales from online sellers. All have been content seeing my CCL.
Selling is a different story for me.
Although I don't part with many of my firearms I have sold a few to local friends.
If I were to sell to a stranger I would get a picture of a valid Ohio picture ID and keep it on file for a long time with notes of what (with serial numbers) when and where.
If you are a stranger, who are you to have a photo of my DL? The “you” being the stranger in that sentence is meant generically, not at the OP. Just becasue a gun store takes a copy of your CHL or DL doesn’t mean it is smart from a private sale buyer’s perspective (the legal being covered already), putting a personal identity document out there in that fashion (a photo on a smartphone) fails identity theft 101.

All that said, if you don’t want to sell privately due to worry, just sell your gun to a gun store. Sure, you’ll get less but that is the price of a formal document trail. Pick the method that you are comfortable with, realizing that perceived safety costs money.
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Re: Private trade/sale - Bill of Transfer?

Post by WeinerDog »

I got a call one day from LEO (don’t remember the agency) stating that a gun I sold with the paper trail leading to me had been found on the coffee table of a drug house. I said I traded that gun in at a local gun store and that was the end of the conversation.
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Re: Private trade/sale - Bill of Transfer?

Post by bignflnut »

Here's an example of what OP is requesting.

Even on this form you will find the following:
What record-keeping procedures should be followed when two private individuals want to engage in a firearms transaction?When a transaction takes place between private (unlicensed) persons who reside in the same State, the Gun Control Act (GCA) does not require any record keeping. A private person may sell a firearm to another private individual in his or her State of residence and, similarly, a private individual may buy a firearm from another private person who resides in the same State. It is not necessary under Federal law for a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) to assist in the sale or transfer when the buyer and seller are "same-State" residents. Of course, the transferor/seller may not knowingly transfer a firearm to someone who falls within any of the categories of prohibited persons contained in the GCA. See 18 U.S. C. §§ 922(g) and (n). However, as stated above, there are no GCA-required records to be completed by either party to the transfer.
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Re: Private trade/sale - Bill of Transfer?

Post by willbird »

djthomas wrote:
ohiodff wrote:I didn't indicate I insist on one, I am asking a simple question. Why so combative?

None of those things you list have serial numbers that are recorded by the seller as having been originally transferred to me.
You'll find that some folks have strong opinions when it comes to guns and generating more paperwork than is legally required. If you were to insist on doing a bill of sale you might find some people unwilling to buy from you. That doesn't mean they have nefarious intent, they just oppose the idea of legally unnecessary documentation.

Having said that I don't know that a bill of sale will really protect you all that much. If the gun gets traced to you the cops are coming to your door and asking questions, whether you have a bill of sale or not. Sure it'd be great if you had a BoS to show but it's not legally required and who's to say you didn't just make it up anyway? It's not like they're certified records. You could always remember the guy's name and town from his DL and how you made contact (e.g. cell phone #) and write it down in your own records after the sale. That's something the cops could run down if the situation called for it.

And as Don'tTreadOnMe points out by you retaining someone's PII you have a moral obligation to protect that information. At the end of the day it's a risk decision for both the buyer and the seller to make.

Personally I've never done a BoS but my private transfers have been limited to relatives and friends. I do them so infrequently I can recite them all, even the ones from 20 years ago. I've found that the real solution is to stop selling guns. Just buy another safe.
You COULD pay attention to the Obituaries and create a bill of sale for every gun you have that predates a persons death by a year or so.

Bill
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Re: Private trade/sale - Bill of Transfer?

Post by M-Quigley »

willbird wrote:
You COULD pay attention to the Obituaries and create a bill of sale for every gun you have that predates a persons death by a year or so.

Bill[/quote]

That could get real interesting if the guns traced and the investigator discovers the deceased was the president of the Coalition to Ban handguns.
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Re: Private trade/sale - Bill of Transfer?

Post by WestonDon »

As a general rule I try to avoid generating superfluous paperwork. If I kept every piece of paper I ever had that said "keep this copy for your records" I'd have bales of the stuff sitting around. What I like about cash transactions is when it's done it's done. Excluding any obvious signs of something not being kosher, I'd ask for proof of residency and that's it. Come to think of it I don't think I've ever sold a gun. I tend to take the advice of the earlier poster who suggested just buy another safe.
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Re: Private trade/sale - Bill of Transfer?

Post by JustaShooter »

I don't do bills of sale, and I don't let people take pictures / make copies of my ID or CHL. I will willingly let you see them, and that's as far as it goes - and if anyone ever springs a bill of sale or photo of my ID/CHL on me as a condition of the sale/purchase during the meet, well, that would be bad...

I ask to see a copy of an Ohio DL and if you have one, a CHL. I also ask if there is any reason you cannot legally possess the firearm in question. And that's it. If LEO come knocking in search of a firearm I've sold, well, I've sold it and may or may not remember who I sold it to but that's the end of it.
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