Private trade/sale - Bill of Transfer?

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sodbuster95
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Re: Private trade/sale - Bill of Transfer?

Post by sodbuster95 »

ohiodff wrote:
sodbuster95 wrote:Would you insist on a "bill of sale" if you sold a hunting knife, an ax, a saw, a screwdriver, a tire iron, etc.? All of those items have the potential to be used as a weapon.
I didn't indicate I insist on one, I am asking a simple question. Why so combative?

None of those things you list have serial numbers that are recorded by the seller as having been originally transferred to me.
I was making a point, not being "combative". If that's your interpretation, perhaps my point wasn't made well enough. Of note, the presence of a serial number has little impact on this scenario. While I have no data on the topic, I would suspect that the majority of firearms traced to individuals (like most other property) are done so by methods other than a document trail using the serial number.

A firearm is a piece of property. Some states impose additional requirements/restrictions/obligations on the ownership, sale, and/or transfer of firearms. Ohio is not one of those states. As such, like any other piece of property (such as the examples I noted earlier) it is lawful to transfer a firearm between individuals, where both are residents of the state of Ohio, without any manner of documentation. Frankly, I would argue that the law does not impose upon the seller/tranferror any obligation to even confirm that the buyer/transferee is a resident of the state. Of course, as transferring to a non-resident would be an offense for the the seller/transferror, simple caution dictates you make some modicum of effort to determine that the other person is, in fact, a resident of Ohio. Seeing a valid Ohio driver license is a reasonable effort and doing so is, I would suggest, all the effort a seller/transferror need take.

Anything more than that would be a self-imposed obligation and one that is unlikely to offer any significant "protection" in the event the police come knocking on your door.

Additionally, as DontTreadOnMe and djthomas noted, there is a good chance you'll find other parties (such as myself) who are unwilling to allow a stranger to make a copy of their driver's license or record their personal information. For me, the risk of identity theft substantially outweighs the risk that a firearm used in a crime would ever be traced back to me.
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Mr. Glock
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Re: Private trade/sale - Bill of Transfer?

Post by Mr. Glock »

Another thought? I'm not a lawyer, so this is just a thought. Let's say you sell a gun. And that gun either has a 4473 in your name that was new when you bought it, so the trace goes from maker to distributor to your gun store to you OR you bought it used (so 4473 is not a direct trace) or was privately purchased, meaning any case under discussion here. And let's say this gun was used in crime and the police find your Bill of Sale at the buyer's residence (assuming a Bill of Sale works both ways here, one for buyer and one for seller). Wouldn't this in some way open you up to being sued in civil court as the one who sold the gun (i.e. you were so worried about the buyer that you went above and beyond the legal requirements to create a paperwork trail would be the line of thought here)? Sort of like the dead drunk's family that sues the bar for serving drinks, you being the bar in this example?

I'm firmly in the meet legal requirements only camp, myself (and I meet them in all and every private sale). But, if we are discussing perceived risk here, then that is a risk for having a Bill of Sale that is not really ever discussed.
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Re: Private trade/sale - Bill of Transfer?

Post by Sevens »

Along with the brief mention of identity theft...

My personal information given to some stranger is a treasure map to a name and very specific address/location of more guns, just given to some random person. This BOS offers zero tangible "protection", only unbelievable liabilty.

It's a stupid concept. I'm more than happy to be labeled "combative" by any snowflake who believes in the concept of a "bill of sale."
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Re: Private trade/sale - Bill of Transfer?

Post by WhyNot »

I've got a couple I think I may move, but the last thing I need in my life is......

How do you protect yourself?
There's nothing wrong with attempting to head-off future problems. In this case you believe a bill of sale will accomplish that. I like others disagree. Ok, moving to a potential solution outside of keeping them, selling to close relatives, or looking up dead persons to write letters to and it's not even Halloween :twisted: season hehe

:idea: SELL THEM HERE :D Benefits? The sales forums here are NOT viewable to the general public; everyone here is registered as a member in order to view sales. And the style of website being given to CHL, proven non-felon types...

If you need any other piece of mind simply ask to see a valid OH CHL along with a valid OH DL. As I've pointed out in older posts, this was a de-facto background check for laypersons in OH for private sales long before OH adopted it into law for a new firearms purchase 4473 'yella papa' (qualifier, if store owner wants to not ''make the call'').
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Re: Private trade/sale - Bill of Transfer?

Post by Aesinsp »

Sevens wrote:Along with the brief mention of identity theft...

My personal information given to some stranger is a treasure map to a name and very specific address/location of more guns, just given to some random person. This BOS offers zero tangible "protection", only unbelievable liabilty...."
My thoughts also fall into this camp.
Asking to see someone's personal information undoubtedly turns off some potential buyers who are fully good to go.
I might show a CHL or DL, but my thumb (or something) would cover anything sensitive.. If I would ever consider purchasing anything like a firearm.
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Re: Private trade/sale - Bill of Transfer?

Post by pirateguy191 »

No.
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Re: Private trade/sale - Bill of Transfer?

Post by M-Quigley »

ohiodff wrote:Does anyone do any kind of Bill of Sale or Bill of Transfer when selling guns privately? I've got a couple I think I may move, but the last thing I need in my life is some LEO knocking on my door years from now wanting to know the whereabouts of a gun I purchased X years ago but sold or traded.

How do you protect yourself? I know that in Ohio the seller has no legal obligation to "check out" the buyer and short of actually knowing the buyer is ineligible to buy/own firearms the seller has no liability, but as stated before, I prefer to limit my opportunities to end up on the wrong end of an anal probe involving hardware I at one time possessed.
I've only had two traces done on the many guns that I've previously sold over the decades, and never felt like it was anal probing. They simply wanted to know if I had sold a particular gun and if I recalled who I sold it to. I don't know if the investigator would've acted differently or not though had the guns been used by a criminal. Both guns were used by law abiding owners in legit self defense cases, and neither of the gun owners were charged.

In the first one I had to keep paperwork because I was an FFL dealer at the time. In the second case I was a private citizen doing a private sale, and I did not do a BOS, although I suppose I would've done one if she wanted it. Even though I didn't know the woman at the time I knew someone else who allegedly did. The police in both cases were merely crossing their T's and dotting their I's in the investigation against the defendents the guns were used against, in case the issue of the defenders guns were brought up by the defense. In fact in the 2nd situation the local police considered the shooting to be a good thing, because they didn't know who the suspect was in a series of sexual assaults against unarmed victims until he got shot. They were able to close the books on multiple cases when they found him. The woman I sold the gun to wasn't his first victim but she was his last one.
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