OhioCCW Forums Changes

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Sevens
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by Sevens »

pleasantguywhopacks wrote:OFCC counts on the membership to attend functions they deem important, contact legislators, pay for memberships, buy store goods and attend fund raiser functions to pay the bills, offer up ideas for what we should pursue in the legislature, but we are not asked for any input on any fundamental changes in consideration of the overall.
While it seems obvious that a number of folks agree with the quoted text, I became a member here to support the work and the vision of the organizing and founding members of this group. I pay dues to keep the forum online, to try to "give back" for the sweat that got concealed carry in Ohio to this point (and further!) and as a way of putting my name on the list of people who support the process that OFCC has used to effect legislative change.

I didn't send in money so that I could try to tell the OFCC PAC who should be listed on the voting guide and I sure as heck didn't send them money so that I could threaten them with mutiny when they elect to make changes to the discussion forum. I never thought my chintzy little donation got me anything more than a banner under my name and a short thought that at least I paid for a little of the bandwidth I use while chatting up guns or adding an opinion to YET ANOTHER of Morne's kooky polls about double action revolvers for defensive carry.
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by blah »

Sevens wrote: One thing I would like to point out, at least from my corner... are the folks who mention members leaving or being attracted to a rival organization.
The fact that two organizations who both support 2a in Ohio are seen as "rivals" is sad to me. Imagine how much more could be accomplished if they worked together.
~ Glen

What part of "shall not be infringed" is so difficult to understand?
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JediSkipdogg
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by JediSkipdogg »

Sevens wrote:I don't know why anyone here has to look at another pro-2A org and see them as a "rival." Like threatening to join them is some kind of insult.
But it should make OFCC look and see what is being done wrong. I'm going to say I like OFCC and enjoy it here....for the most part. Here as my discrepancies and some personal comparisons I have with one of those other organizations, BFA.

Last year I started teaching CHL classes and requested some of the free information from this website sometime in the spring. At the same time, I decided to become a member. I went to Patron because of the fancy coin (I'll admit that's the only reason I went Patron.) I don't like accepting anything free from a non-profit and that is why I decided to join. Basically as a way to say thanks for the handouts. Problem is, I never received them. It also took around 2 months for my membership to come in. Once I got the membership, I waited a bit and requested the info again. Still never received it. So during my winter break from classes I was looking around online for info and saw BFA had the nifty handout cards. I received those within a week of requesting them. (Alan, I applaude you for what you do, but you need help) I finally received them after someone else complained on here and I replied to their complain seconding it. PGWP was great enough to meet me to give me the information I requested so I could hand it out to my students to bring more members to the site which will hopefully bring more money.

Last year I also offered to help on here when again, people were complaining about slowness of receiving items or assistance. My offer went unanswered and when it was brought up about a month ago I figured why bother. There's too much tightness with signing agreements and such that I feel like I'd be signing up as a Secret Service Agent to help here. There's some here I feel would be great assets without all the hoopla to help.

My main point of all this is I think OFCC is growing which is great. Problem is, I think the speed of services by those in charge is lacking. Maybe the membership is growing too fast for those in charge to handle, which I think is a great detriment. While I do not belong to BFA, I will say they have been instantaneous with information to promote thier cause. I saw an advertisement on their site once that I asked for some more info on and they responded the same day giving me contact info for the ad and mailed stuff to myself. Great service IMO.

Think of it this way, if Meijer and Kroger are next to each other, and you get terrible service asking for help at Kroger, are you going to continue shopping there? I doubt it. I will say I'll be staying, but sadly think this website has the chance of going the way I have seen two previous non-firearm ones go. One turned into a tyranical style mod staff and everyone left because it was too heavily censored, and the other just had a few bad mods that locked every other thread because it was easier than seperating out threads. Therefore the forum became a reading only site and posting was looked down upon. Eventually the second one saw their ways and lightened up greatly and it became enjoyable again, but not before I left it only to go back a handful of times.
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by Mustang380gal »

JediSkipdogg wrote:.... I doubt it. I will say I'll be staying, but sadly think this website has the chance of going the way I have seen two previous non-firearm ones go. One turned into a tyranical style mod staff and everyone left because it was too heavily censored, and the other just had a few bad mods that locked every other thread because it was easier than seperating out threads. Therefore the forum became a reading only site and posting was looked down upon. Eventually the second one saw their ways and lightened up greatly and it became enjoyable again, but not before I left it only to go back a handful of times.
I was on packing.org before I was here. It was rather carefully modded, but got lots of complaints, so went with rating system instead. Posts could be rated up or down, then really bad ones got hidden depending on your settings. It turned into a "You rated me low, so I will rate you low!" war. Before it died completely, people were wishing the rating system had never been implemented.

Frankly, I don't understand all the upset these fairly minor changes are causing. I don't agree with everything Ted wants in our marriage, but he's the leader, leads well, so I go along. It usually turns out right. If it ends up wrong, he feels bad enough without me nagging.

Some of you guys sound like bitter wives. The leaders see the way they want to go. Let them lead. It's a good likelihood it will turn out fine.

If two people are trying to waltz, only one can lead, otherwise they crash into everything, and are doing something on a dance floor, but it probably isn't a waltz.
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by OhioPaints »

sabalo wrote:**Olive branch in hand**

We don't want to lose even one valuable member of this forum over the changes.
We want and need your support.

However, as coords, mods or board members we are charged with a duty to do what best for the whole organization. Some of those decisions may upset a portion of our members but we always attempt to keep our heads straight about working for the total membership (you and me).

If you carry a gun with a license, thank OFCC. If it wouldn't have been for this organization and the "pushes' it gave to politicians you wouldn't be wearing that gun.

We are stronger together than separate. As a single voter, would your voice be better heard as an email note to your legislator or as your name alongside 5000 others with the same intent ?

You can make or break gun rights in Ohio. Make them as a solid front as a large group, or lose them as a single voice with no clout. It's that idea that started OFCC and is still relevant today as we move to improve Ohio gun rights.

Where do you stand ?
Good!

A few comments.

You are absolutely right: "We are stronger together than separate." Earlier in this thread, I believe there was a statement indicating that it would be best if the OC people started their own organization (I'm pretty sure it was a mod or coordinator that made the remark). I know a few years past, OFCC management stated that the name of this organization included the word concealed and that's where the interest lies. But again, as you said, "We are stronger together than separate."

Your statement yesterday
We don't want to quash OC or restrict it for ANY citizen.
could still be read as "we don't want to quash it but we don't support or promote it and don't want it here on this board". I would feel better if OFCC clearly supported it. "We are stronger together than separate."

I'm not big on open carry although I think it is a valuable step in helping the general public realize that good people have guns. Maybe I'm wrong. Personally I'm not going to get involved in pushing the issue but I agree "We are stronger together than separate."

Yes, I understand the need to improve the image of the board. I have sometimes wondered why some messages were allowed. Yes, I understand the mods are busy. And that's an issue. As others have said, we need more mods. Volume is big but the number of mods hasn't grown. They are busy with other tasks. Time and time again we hear that members have volunteered to help but were ignored. Years ago there was a request posted for additional moderators. I offered. No response. Okay, I can accept that I don't fit the profile desired. But I'm sure some people do.

Eventually some of the threads were locked. Perhaps too late. But the offending messages (at least the ones I saw as offending) were left. That doesn't help the image. Why not remove the offending posts?

Two of the hot issues behind this seem to be open carry and "cop bashing". But those are the two areas where Ohio citizens are having the most problems with law enforcement. Rather than just working to get new laws past, OFCC also needs to work more to make sure that existing laws are respected by the law enforcement and political community. It will do no good to get restaurant carry passed if law enforcement ignores it and hassles/arrests people. It will do no good to get "notification" repealed if law enforcement does felony stops because people don't notify.

Instead of the wholesale change in direction originally stated, I think we need something more in between, and more mods. Rather than try to change the board 90 degrees as the original statement seemed, I think a little fine tuning could improve things without disrupting the organization.

And obviously we need more volunteers active within the organization. I understand the current volunteers are overworked and maybe worn out. The organization is growing and leadership needs to bring in fresh blood.

I hope the organization can improve and bring the Ohio firearms community together.

Ken
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by JediSkipdogg »

I want to second OhioPants post above and on the more mods. I think it was even mentioned a few pages back that maybe the site should separate the mods and coordinators. Have a group in charge of the forum and a group in charge of everything else. Give the "everything else" a special title on the forum and have a few head honchos be in charge of both to make sure the mods do their job, but run it like a police department generally does. The command staff is in charge of purchasing vehicles, creating policies, working with other departments, etc. The Sergeants are in charge of enforcing the jobs on the road.

In terms of on here, the command staff would be those we currently have in charge of something (aka the board I didn't realize existed.) The forum mods would be like sergeants and have nothing else to do but mod the members (aka the officers.) Seperate some work and bring some more on. If you worry about a mod going out of control or being too hard, then the Captain of the mods can give them a warning to charge and/or remove their mod powers. I have seen it work well on other forums I modded and I was on a forum where we had well over 100 mods and about 2-3 in charge of us. But those in charge of us did nothing but assist the mods with problems when asked and make sure the mods did their job. They did no modding at all and it worked out very well.
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I am not a lawyer. My answers are based on research, knowledge, and are generally backed up with facts, the Ohio Revised Code, or the United States Code.
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by AlanM »

Just for the record I'd like to point out a few things.
1. I am no longer the person who is tasked with mailing out the OFCC information cards.
2. Due to the legal contract I was required to sign just to take on that voluntary function I was not allowed to farm out any of the work except for getting people to come to my home and help prepare packages of cards. I asked for help here on the forums and NOT ONE of the OFCC powers that be contacted me. I did get some help and I do thank those people but it was too little too late.
3. I never liked the OFCC stance on these cards from nearly the beginning because as far as I could tell the idea of the cards was developed by BFA and they were doing quite well without our help.
4. The cards are supposed to be ordered by and mailed out to CHL instructors as indicated here.
5. I had no way to vet requests to insure that the above was the case and when I pointed this out I was told to mail out cards to anyone who asked for them. I actually mailed out a large order of cards to someone in Virginia. :?
6. The information cards, unless they are causing people to donate to OFCC, are a loss leader, IMHO, the cost about 1¢ each to be printed and delivered and about, on average, 3¢ each to package and mail out. An order of 20,000 cards therefore costs OFCC $800. Not counting the mind numbing hours it takes to harvest the names and addresses from the incoming emails, editing them for proper case and format for the USPS, printing the labels, applying the labels to the envelopes, etc.
7. I can only assume that the cards are listed on OFCC's balance sheet as an advertising expense. So, I guess that if those 20,000 cards cause more than 32 people to contribute then they can be considered a success. Edit: In light of this last statement and the probability that quite a few more than 32 contribute, the cards are a success.

8. I haven't posted any cat pictures as independent threads for nearly two years ever since I got severely wrist slapped by the powers that be. And yet, people still mention them.

9. I'm one of the most senior members of these forums, time wise, and yet don't hold the record for number of posts because I follow the TOS in that I don't post "+1" or "ME TOO!" posts. If I did I'd probably have the highest post count on the forums. I guess that makes me one of the silent majority. Also, although I don't check who's online so I don't know for sure but I'd hazard a guess that I spend more time on these forums, physically in front of my computer, for more hours a day than 99.9% of the other members

10. As far as the request for suggestions that the powers that be requested that caused these changes, I suspect that this a case of the squeaky wheel getting the grease and if the changes had been put up to a general vote they would have been voted down. I think most of the members here didn't say anything because they didn't have any complaints and were satisfied with the way things were.

11. OBTW - unless I missed it. Has anybody pointed out that a good part of this whole uproar was caused by ONE MISSPELLED THREE LETTER WORD in a post by one of the coordinators?

12. I tend to look upon the regular contributors on these forums as a sort of an extended family. One with a large population of different people with different life experiences, expertise, points of view, etc.
There are a large number of very intelligent, knowledgeable individuals that are more than happy to answer, as best they can, nearly any question put to the group. IF these forums are limited to only Ohio concealed carry topics it will turn into a wasteland. It will be like a family that only gets together for a few holidays a year, weddings, and funerals. New people to the forums won't get nearly instant responses to their questions and will probably wander off after a very short time or never post at all.
Interestingly on the BFA forums, out of 2272 registered users 1188 have never posted a message, 246 have only posted once and of the top 12 posters one is the site administrator and five are moderators.
AlanM
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by dsk »

Like Sgt. Hulka in the bathroom scene in Stripes, I'm taking my hat off for this one.

Seems there are some folks wagering that the forum will be less interesting now. But it seems pretty lively to me. And given the vitriolic nature of some of those predictions, you'd think those posters would avoid the forums like the plague in an effort to fulfill the prophesy. Not so much. The changes are minor in the grand scheme and the forums will remain one of the best places on the internet to discuss gun rights. Bet on it.

I also want to thank those who have taken the time to post encouraging thoughts. I do not believe any of the people involved with running the forum take the criticism personally, but I think it is still nice for them to see that support, and they have mine as well.

Alan, I'm sorry, but I just don't care how long you've been driving that keyboard. Post count is not a badge of anything at all, not even a measure of free time. You've posted a couple of times about how long you've been around, and I get the sense that you think that either means something in and of itself, or that it somehow enhances your credibility. The silent majority?! Not even close on either account.

But if there is a connection between longevity and the current state of affairs, then why am I not blaming you for all the things in 2923 that need fixing? Why are we not beating you (and Jeff, Bryan and Dan, et al) up for the stupid parts of the law that you helped pass? Why are we not blaming you for the fact that some law enforcement officials still do not understand the law. Hey, I'm a newb, and I cannot believe what a poor job you all have done to this point. It's time to get serious. Must be that the other states have had better people involved with their gun rights organizations. As the "old guard", Alan, man-up and accept responsibility.

I don't believe any of this, but it makes as much sense as the belly aching coming from your IP address lately. Sorry you disagreee with the NGNM card situation. It's not your problem. Let it go. It isn't important.

Also, jediSD, the Mods and Coordinators do have separate functions. It is not unheard of for a Coordinator to perform Mod duties, but it should be the exception. When I run across a post that I think warrants attention, I use the report post function like everybody else. I'll probably report this post myself.

Anyway, I wish everybody well, but if you wish ill on the organization or those in charge at the moment, take a vacation. If the forum changes have you up at night, or breathlessly checking for new posts on the subject, you are a sad sad person. Go for a walk. Check back from time to time to see if you want to be a part, but do yourself a huge favor and eliminate a source of stress in your life for now.
Pay your dues.
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by AlanM »

dsk wrote: I don't believe any of this, but it makes as much sense as the belly aching coming from your IP address lately. Sorry you disagreee with the NGNM card situation. It's not your problem. Let it go. It isn't important.
That particular comment would actually be funny if it weren't so sad. You obviously either mis-typed it or have no idea what cards we've been talking about.

Also, I'd like to point out that, as yet, I have not attacked any one in the OFCC leadership or any person on these forums. However, I do find your last post to be somewhat hurtful.

What belly aching? :? This is the fifth post I've made in this thread, two have been questions and one was a tongue in cheek correction of a post sabalo made about his seniority (time wise) on these forums.

I learned a long time ago that being one of the early joiners of OFCC has absolutely no weight when it comes to being invited into the decision making circle. You and Jake are good examples of that, unless, of course you were members here with different logon names before your current ones.
AlanM
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by blah »

dsk. Way to insult everyone who has expressed concerns in this thread. I can't be sure but I'm pretty sure you've violated a few TOS in your post. Nothing like someone from OFCC leadership following the "do as I say, not as I do" philosophy.

Tip. Read what sabalo said about OFCC needing its members. Perhaps you didn't get the memo because you seem to think you don't need any of us.
~ Glen

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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by djthomas »

Danger! Personal opinion ahead!!

This thread needs something like Wikipedia's protected status where additions aren't allowed for 24 hours. A cooling off if you will. I don't think it should be permanently locked because there's definitely some legitimate grievances that demand legitimate responses (perhaps in an OFCC members-only forum). However I fear we're devolving to a point that it's becoming counterproductive. This is exactly what the antis would love to see: divide and conquer. As my grandfather always said, it's OK to disagree but a good man (person) is one who does so while being agreeable. Or in the words of Benjamin Franklin, we must hang together or assuredly we shall hang separately.

It's Sunday and it's over 40 degrees across most of Ohio. Can't we all go outside and play or something and come back tomorrow or Tuesday after everyone has had a chance to settle down a bit? I'm going to go replace the PCV valve on my car and then go pick up some seeds to start in two weeks. Talk to you later!
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by WBL_2006 »

Some of you guys sound like bitter wives. The leaders see the way they want to go. Let them lead. It's a good likelihood it will turn out fine.
Very well stated.

Personally, I would like to thank all of the OFCC Coordinators, Mods, and Leaders. Without them this place wouldn't exist. So much is done behind the scenes, for free, by their own choice. I've pondered on many occasions contacting OFCC about volunteering my time for certain activities, but I realize that I truly do not have the time to commit on a level that would be fair to the organization or members. However, I'm very glad there are people out there that take the time. I have nothing but respect for them.

I found this forum after looking for information on getting an OLTCACH in 2005. I lurked for a while, joined, and then obtained my OLTCACH. The forums have been a source of knowledge, sharing experiences, "spirited debate", selling things, buying things, and getting to meet some really good people (some more than others...right Jim? :lol: ). It has also caused me to re-evaluate my mindset (several times) and take the measures needed to ensure I can protect myself and loved ones. That alone makes the price of membership worth it to me.

Speaking frankly, it's shocking to me the reaction of some the members in this thread. I would hate to see the reaction of some parties when something truly bad occurs (be it related to gun laws or in their personal lives). But I realize that everyone has their opinion and right to have certain expectations. As Linda stated above, let them lead.

WBL - Proud Patron Member of OFCC
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by TunnelRat »

djthomas wrote: As someone else said if there's a concern about the ability of moderators to adequately police the forums given that most moderators are also coordinators, then consider appointing a few folks who strictly moderate.
A large part of the problem of moderating our forums is getting the cooperation of the members. You might be surprised at the volume of bitter, vituperative PMs the mods have to put up with.

Some folks tend to abuse our forums, posting constant negative comments, snide remarks, and uncalled for criticisms. There are even those who like to use the OFCC forums to condemn the organization itself. This gives us a bad image. Yet for the most part, the moderators let pretty much anything stand so long as it isn't a personal attack, blasphemous, illegal, or blatantly vulgar.

We would do well to keep in mind that OFCC is not the forums, and the forums are not OFCC. These forums are offered by OFCC as one of our services to our members. Thus, we try to maintain a family-friendly atmosphere so our members can carry on positive discussions with regard to firearms, equipment, rights, reloading, sales, legislation, and much, much more. It's a good way for many of our members to keep in touch.

However, most of what OFCC does takes place off the forums, and behind the scenes. The changes we've instituted have been made with our primary goals in mind.
TunnelRat

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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by BEAR! »

dsk wrote:
DEFCON1 wrote:Furthermore, I QUIT. I'd explain in greater detail, but I doubt anyone would care. This Charlie Brown is not going to give Lucy another chance to yank away the football.

Chris

K, bye.

For the most part I'm ok with the changes being made. But I have to question the way coordinators are selected if this kind of response is as common as it seems with DSK.
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Re: OhioCCW Forums Changes

Post by JediSkipdogg »

I just noticed another recent detriment to one of the changes on here. It has been said by the coordinators/board that they don't like it when new people come on here just to post a gun. Therefore they are implementing that one must be a supporter to do so. I think that is going to actually cost the organization members and supporters. If I am looking around for a gun to sell and I happen upon here I'll think cool, a forum to post and sell it on. But nope, I have to pay $25 to sell that gun. It appears a $500 gun on gunbroker would cost $13. So which am I going to do, join an organization I just found online with no clue about them and pay $25 to sell it or pay $13 on gunbroker? I use to love reading XD Talk and wanted to post on there till I saw they needed a 25 post limit to even post guns. Instantly sent me the other way. Just something else to think about.
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Ohio Concealed Carry Classes in S/W Ohio
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I am not a lawyer. My answers are based on research, knowledge, and are generally backed up with facts, the Ohio Revised Code, or the United States Code.
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