Concealing vs Covering

[ApexShootingTactics]

CroManGun, If its not a poor tactical decision then what is the tactical gain?

Don't get me wrong, I am not indicating that this man did something illegal. I see it as a poor tactical decision.

YOU see it that way. Others might not.
Sometimes I carry my .45 and, depending on how long my T-shirt is, an inch or two of barrel is visible. I just don't care!
Other times, my shirt is longer and there's just a large bulge on my right hip. I just don't care!
Over the years, I've had people come up to me to tell me that my gun is "printing". My answer: "What Gun?" Depending on how much I want to yank their chain, I tell them its a heart monitor, a defibrillator, a colostomy bag, or a GPS unit I have to wear since I got out of prison. A special one for the nosey ladies: I tell them it's a pump for liquid Viagra. I love the looks on their faces as they slink away.
As you can see, I really just don't care!

[JustaShooter]

CroManGun, If its not a poor tactical decision then what is the tactical gain?

Don't get me wrong, I am not indicating that this man did something illegal. I see it as a poor tactical decision.

YOU see it that way. Others might not.
Sometimes I carry my .45 and, depending on how long my T-shirt is, an inch or two of barrel is visible. I just don't care!
Other times, my shirt is longer and there's just a large bulge on my right hip. I just don't care!
Over the years, I've had people come up to me to tell me that my gun is "printing". My answer: "What Gun?" Depending on how much I want to yank their chain, I tell them its a heart monitor, a defibrillator, a colostomy bag, or a GPS unit I have to wear since I got out of prison. A special one for the nosey ladies: I tell them it's a pump for liquid Viagra. I love the looks on their faces as they slink away.
As you can see, I really just don't care!

I'm not CroManGun, but depending on circumstances open carry can be a deterrent. Some folks prefer to look like a sheep and have the element of surprise during an attack, others prefer to look like a predator and avoid the attack entirely. And then there is always speed.

[Morne]

Seriously?!?!?! You were carrying something that did not have revolving parts?

It happens more often than you might think (or than I'd prefer to admit).

[CroManGun]

CroManGun, If its not a poor tactical decision then what is the tactical gain?

It's been my experience, going on almost five decades now, that THINKING tactical is more important than LOOKING tactical.
I've got my version of tactics that work for me. Might not work for you. We all have to be able to adapt to various situations in a way that is comfortable to us. I don't believe that one size fits all.

[pirateguy191]

CroManGun, If its not a poor tactical decision then what is the tactical gain?

Police open carry, there must be some sort of tactical gain. No?

[Luv2Camp]

CroManGun, If its not a poor tactical decision then what is the tactical gain?

Police open carry, there must be some sort of tactical gain. No?

Yes and no. Yes on Access to draw but no if someone is looking to take out any threat they can identify first

[DontTreadOnMe]

The guy was open carrying? It sounded like he was concealed carrying and printing very clearly. No speed of access gain there. Probably even worse in a very tight shirt vs. a looser concealing garment.

[ApexShootingTactics]

CroManGun, So you are saying that carrying concealed is someone who is trying to look tactical and a person who prints or open carries is thinking more tactical?That doesn't make any sense all. A tactic is a plan or procedure that promotes a desired outcome. In most instances a tactic is not specific to an individual it is specific to a situation.

CroManGun, If its not a poor tactical decision then what is the tactical gain?

It's been my experience, going on almost five decades now, that THINKING tactical is more important than LOOKING tactical.
I've got my version of tactics that work for me. Might not work for you. We all have to be able to adapt to various situations in a way that is comfortable to us. I don't believe that one size fits all.

To compare LEO with the average Joe who is open carrying during his every day activities is apples to oranges because the mission is different. No to mention LEOs on duty generally have a higher degree of situational awareness, they use retention holsters, they have weapon retention training. It is rare to see an open carry with a retention holster let alone a good retention holster and not too many citizens are obtaining weapon retention training. Even so, cops still get killed on a regular basis because they are reactive in many cases. We are also starting to see more news stories across the nation of those who choose to open carry being robbed of their gun.

It is not my intention to debate the open carry issue. To me it is a non-issue, I support the right but I cringe when it isn't used properly. Open carry is a tactical decision that should be made with the mission in mind. It offers certain pros many have already mentioned but for a trip to the grocery story I fail to see overwhelming advantages. The mission dictates the tactics and equipment, too often people allow the equipment to change the mission and the tactics.

[ApexShootingTactics]

Speed is tough to debate and we could what if all day but consider the following...

Carrying concealed you have the advantage of not being noticed as a serious threat early on.
Open carry you are a target far sooner.

So it comes down to surviving the Observation phase. Does the bad guy see you as a threat or his he scanning past you from time to time (situational dependent). From there can you orient (draw and present) before the bad guy observes, presents and fires on you. So much of this is situational dependent but in controlled scenarios I have seen the concealed carry guy win far more often than the open carry. It always boils down to the observation phase but they are scenarios where people know things are going down.

[CroManGun]

CroManGun, So you are saying that carrying concealed is someone who is trying to look tactical and a person who prints or open carries is thinking more tactical?That doesn't make any sense all. A tactic is a plan or procedure that promotes a desired outcome. In most instances a tactic is not specific to an individual it is specific to a situation.

What I'm saying is that FOR ME, tactical is more a mental process than a physical appearance. I've survived being stabbed and a fair amount of being shot at and the subject of OC, CC, or printing is not tactically relevant to ME.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

...To compare LEO with the average Joe who is open carrying during his every day activities is apples to oranges because the mission is different.

Different? How so?

Ask any police officer and they will tell you that their sidearm is for self-defense.

...No to mention LEOs on duty generally have a higher degree of situational awareness, they use retention holsters, they have weapon retention training...

You said "generally" which means "not always".

It is rare to see an open carry with a retention holster let alone a good retention holster and not too many citizens are obtaining weapon retention training.

You don't support open carry, so I'm wondering where you are getting your facts (or IF they're facts).

I've open carried since the late 80's, I carry in a leather holster with a thumb break (or false thumb break...I'm not telling ) and I have had weapon retention training from a former Franklin County deputy Sheriff.

But to say that I am not among the 'typical' open carrier would require statistical knowledge of open carriers. I research this stuff and even I don't have those numbers.

...We are also starting to see more news stories across the nation of those who choose to open carry being robbed of their gun...

And we see lots of people driving without experience and wrecking their cars.

One of those stories you refer to involved the guy who bought a gun on day 1, then went walking through a bad part of town, at night, on day 2.

Don't forget the people who have been through training and do not commit themselves to their own defense and have their guns taken away after drawing from concealment. "I thought they would run away when I showed them my gun."

Or the people who have been POORLY trained (typically by OPOTA certified trainers here in Ohio) and don't keep a round chambered, or use their "Hillary Hole" on their EDC, or some other nonsense that would make a cop feel good but works against the trainee.

Also, define "more". I'm only finding 3 stories of open carriers having their guns stolen and one of those was in CA when the gun had to be carried unloaded.

It is not my intention to debate the open carry issue.

REALLY ??? Is THAT why you said this to the poor guy?:

"The idea is to conceal it so you don't ruin it for everyone else"

Ruin WHAT, if I may ask?

To me it is a non-issue,...

Again, if it is a non-issue, you probably wouldn't have said this:

"The idea is to conceal it so you don't ruin it for everyone else"

I support the right but I cringe when it isn't used properly.

Properly? How does one "use" the right to open carry "properly", in YOUR opinion?

Feel free to start a new topic on this issue in the Open Carry Discussion forum.

Open carry is a tactical decision that should be made with the mission in mind. It offers certain pros many have already mentioned but for a trip to the grocery story I fail to see overwhelming advantages.

What are the disadvantages?

Maybe I'm the first to be shot. Okay. I am aware of that and I accept that. I can hope that my sacrifice will allow another carrier (open or concealed) TIME TO ACT. Regardless, it's my choice.

When you do the research, you will find a much higher number of 'bad guys' that have avoided a location or delayed their attack because an open carrier was present, than you will find open carriers having their guns taken. You will find on this forum a topic called "car wash" where a carrier was very recently approached by a panhandler who immediately backed off at the very sight of the carriers normally concealed gun.

The mission dictates the tactics and equipment, too often people allow the equipment to change the mission and the tactics.

The "mission" is what you do. The "tactics" are the way you do it. No more. No less.

To say something is "not very tactical" is a nonsense statement.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

Speed is tough to debate and we could what if all day but consider the following...

Carrying concealed you have the advantage of not being noticed as a serious threat early on.
Open carry you are a target far sooner.

But ONLY if the bad guy sees it. There are MANY scenarios where the public, STANDING NEXT TO an open carrier, doesn't see their gun. Walking between cars in a parking lot or shelves in a store, it's hard to tell what someone has on their waistline.

So it comes down to surviving the Observation phase. Does the bad guy see you as a threat or his he scanning past you from time to time (situational dependent). From there can you orient (draw and present) before the bad guy observes, presents and fires on you. So much of this is situational dependent but in controlled scenarios I have seen the concealed carry guy win far more often than the open carry. It always boils down to the observation phase but they are scenarios where people know things are going down.

How many bad guys have you met that START their attack by shooting someone, let alone an open carrier? Yes, it happens, but even the DUMB bad guys know that the cops will pursue a case where a gun was used to injure or kill FAR MORE EARNESTLY than a case where no one was harmed.

And in these "controlled scenarios", were your open carriers also carrying a concealed handgun? Did they have ANY additional weapons with which to fight? Were your attackers told about the open carriers in advance? I would LOVE to see video of these scenarios being run.

[MyWifeSaidYes]

Now, if you had approached him and said, "Your shirt is pushing down on your grip safety. I wouldn't want you to have an accidental discharge.", it probably would have been accepted in a better light.

He could make his OWN decision as to cover it or uncover it, rather than having somebody tell him their opinion.

"...ruin it for the rest of us." ???

That's just arrogant.

[Metal1]

How about just minding your own business. Clearly the guy didn't care if his gun showed. Two words I wish would go away forever "PRINTING" and "MADE". Usually when I see either in a post I move right along.
And stop with all that "tactical" BS talk. Everyone thinks they are some walking NinjaReconRangerSeal. Guess what, you aren't. Go change your 5.11's and do a personal reset.

[djmac1964]

Guys, lets keep this civil please. This is a discussion, not an argument, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Thanks.