SECURITY TIPS & PREVENTION

Use this forum to post your experience with encounters with law enforcement, criminals, or other encounters as a result of your firearm or potential to be carrying one.

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Incognito
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SECURITY TIPS & PREVENTION

Post by Incognito »

I wanted to start a topic regarding security, crime prevention and related tips. To include any incidents that may help others learn what action to take if they experience a similar event. I have been involved in the security business for over 18 years and teach our corporate clients how to stay alert and protect themselves. This also involves teaching them to be proactive not reactive. I'll post the first tip.

Here is a recent incident to learn from.
The other night around 00:30 I was watching tv and I suddenly the front door was getting hammered on. I had all the lights off outside. I muted the tv and thought "what the hell was that!" then the pounding coutinued. The noise was loud enough that I thought someone was kicking the door in. I keep one of my gun safes in the bedroom and determined I best get some protection in hand. I approached the front door without turning on any lights, or standing in front of it. Because there were no lights on inside or outside I could not see who was pounding on the door, and they could not see me. Staying under cover ,I flipped on the spot lights on the front porch and see this very heavy set woman. She starts yelling," I need to use the phone I ran out of gas."
I have been in the security business for a long time and felt bad about this lady running out of gas and being alone. However not bad enough to open the door and then have someone come from around the corner after the door opened, and run into the house. I had my cell phone on me, so I called the police and told the woman that the police were on the way. Always stay alert and if something does not feel right, play it safe and take secure measures. Always grab your cell phone it could also save your life.
:wink:
We Shall Never Forget 9-11-2001
SMMAssociates
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Post by SMMAssociates »

Incognito:

That may not be a "good" 911 call.... Calling 911 before checking who's on the porch might be better....

Particularly if you find yourself in a shooting situation. Our "retreat" requirements pretty much say "call 911 and then go hide or leave the house"....

But that was a good response in general - grab a gun and call the PD....

Regards,
Stu.

(Why write a quick note when you can write a novel?)

(Why do those who claim to wish to protect me feel that the best way to do that is to disarm me?)

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Incognito
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Post by Incognito »

Stu- I would agree however I needed to make sure that it warranted a call to them. As soon as I realized I did not know this person, I called. ie. A drunk neighboor wanting some sugar! :D
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selgado
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Post by selgado »

SMMAssociates wrote: Particularly if you find yourself in a shooting situation. Our "retreat" requirements pretty much say "call 911 and then go hide or leave the house"....
I thought we were not required in any way, shape or form to retreat in our own homes. Being lawfully empowered to 'stand our ground.' I realize that this is not always the most wise thing to do, but still legal. Can someone enlighten me?
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security alarm

Post by Javelin Man »

'Ring, ring!'

"Hello?"

"This is Mike from Brink's Security. Your alarm went off. Is everything okay?"

'Background sounds' BANG,BANG,BANG

"Everything's fine, now, thank you."

Mike: I'm calling the morgue now, sir.
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1. What Is That Dog Doing to That Other Dog?
2. Daddy Drinks Because You Cry
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Incognito
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Post by Incognito »

HOME SELF DEFENSE-

For what it's worth. This was taken from the latest ORC.
It is best to check with your local attorney however. (IANAL)

An owner, lessee, or renter of real property or a member of the owner's, lessee's, or renter's family who resides on the property is not required to retreat from a building or other structure that is maintained as a permanent or temporary dwelling prior to using reasonably necessary force to repel a trespasser from the building or other structure or to prevent a trespasser from making an unlawful entry into the building or other structure.

I myself would not be running from my house if my family was at home,
however if I was alone and could escape undetected I would. It would make for a good episode on COPS when they surrounded the house!

I hope I never have to make this decision.


Regards,

Incognito
We Shall Never Forget 9-11-2001
ballistic
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Post by ballistic »

Incognito wrote:HOME SELF DEFENSE-

For what it's worth. This was taken from the latest ORC.
Could you provide the ORC section for this citation? Thanks.
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rickt
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Post by rickt »

I knew in general we didn't have to retreat from our home and I remember someone saying on the OFCC Talk list that we also had legal immunity if we are forced to defend ourselves or family while in our homes, but it is nice to know the details. Searching Andersons with the words "building retreat" found the relevant section:
§ 2305.40. Immunity of owner, lessee or renter of real property as to self-defense or defense of others.
(A) As used in this section:

(1) "Firearm" has the same meaning as in section 2923.11 of the Revised Code.

(2) "Tort action" means a civil action for damages for injury, death, or loss to person or property other than a civil action for damages for a breach of contract or another agreement between persons.

(3) "Vehicle" has the same meaning as in section 4501.01 of the Revised Code.

(B) (1) The owner, lessee, or renter of real property or a member of the owner's, lessee's, or renter's family who resides on the property is not liable in damages to a trespasser on the property, to a member of the family of the trespasser, or to any other person in a tort action for injury, death, or loss to person or property of the trespasser that allegedly is caused by the owner, lessee, renter, or family member if, at the time the injury, death, or loss to person or property allegedly is caused, all of the following apply:

(a) The owner, lessee, renter, or family member is inside a building or other structure on the property that is maintained as a permanent or temporary dwelling;

(b) The trespasser has made, is making, or is attempting to make an unlawful entry into the building or other structure described in division (B)(1)(a) of this section;

(c) The owner, lessee, renter, or family member uses reasonably necessary force to repel the trespasser from the building or other structure described in division (B)(1)(a) of this section or to prevent the trespasser from making the unlawful entry into that building or other structure.

(2) For purposes of the immunity created by division (B)(1) of this section, reasonably necessary force to repel a trespasser from a building or other structure that is maintained as a permanent or temporary dwelling or to prevent a trespasser from making an unlawful entry into a building or other structure of that nature may include the taking of or attempting to take the trespasser's life, or causing or attempting to cause physical harm or serious physical harm to the person of the trespasser, if the owner, lessee, or renter of real property or a member of the owner's, lessee's, or renter's family who resides on the property has a reasonable good faith belief that the owner, lessee, or renter or a member of the owner's, lessee's, or renter's family is in imminent danger of death or serious physical harm to person and that the only means to escape from the imminent danger is to use deadly force or other force that likely will cause physical harm or serious physical harm to the person of the trespasser, even if the owner, lessee, renter, or family member is mistaken as to the existence or imminence of the danger of death or serious physical harm to person.

(3) In order to qualify for the immunity created by division (B)(1) of this section, an owner, lessee, or renter of real property or a member of the owner's, lessee's, or renter's family who resides on the property is not required to retreat from a building or other structure that is maintained as a permanent or temporary dwelling prior to using reasonably necessary force to repel a trespasser from the building or other structure or to prevent a trespasser from making an unlawful entry into the building or other structure.

(C) The owner, lessee, or renter of real property or a member of the owner's, lessee's, or renter's family who resides on the property is not liable in damages to a trespasser on the property, to a member of the family of the trespasser, or to any other person in a tort action for injury, death, or loss to person or property of the trespasser that allegedly is caused by the owner, lessee, renter, or family member under circumstances not covered by division (B)(1) of this section if, at the time the injury, death, or loss to person or property allegedly is caused, none of the following applies:

(1) The injury, death, or loss to person or property is caused by a physical assault of the owner, lessee, renter, or family member upon the trespasser other than in self-defense or defense of a third person.

(2) Self-defense or defense of a third person is not involved, and the injury, death, or loss to person or property is caused by a vehicle driven or otherwise set in motion, a firearm shot, or any other item of tangible personal property held, driven, set in motion, projected, or thrown by the owner, lessee, renter, or family member with the intent to cause injury, death, or loss to person or property of the trespasser or with the intent to cause the trespasser to believe that the owner, lessee, renter, or family member would cause injury, death, or loss to person or property of the trespasser.

(3) Under circumstances not described in division (C)(1) or (2) of this section, self-defense or defense of a third person is not involved, and the owner, lessee, renter, or family member intends to create a risk of injury, death, or loss to person or property of any trespasser by direct or indirect means, including, but not limited to, the use of spring guns, traps, or other dangerous instrumentalities.

(D) (1) This section does not create a new cause of action or substantive legal right against the owner, lessee, or renter of real property or a member of the owner's, lessee's, or renter's family who resides on the property.

(2) This section does not affect any civil liability under another section of the Revised Code or the common law of this state of an owner, lessee, or renter of real property or a member of the owner's, lessee's, or renter's family who resides on the property with respect to individuals other than trespassers, including, but not limited to, civil liability to invitees or licensees.

(3) This section does not affect any immunities from or defenses to civil liability established by another section of the Revised Code or available at common law to which the owner, lessee, or renter of real property or a member of the owner's, lessee's, or renter's family who resides on the property may be entitled with respect to individuals other than trespassers, including, but not limited to, immunities from or defenses to civil liability to invitees or licensees.

(4) This section does not affect any criminal liability that the owner, lessee, or renter of real property or a member of the owner's, lessee's, or renter's family who resides on the property may have for injury, death, or loss to person or property of a trespasser, invitee, or licensee on the property.

(5) This section does not affect any immunities from or defenses to civil liability established by another section of the Revised Code or available at common law to which an individual other than the owner, lessee, or renter of real property or a member of the owner's, lessee's, or renter's family who resides on the property may be entitled in connection with injury, death, or loss to person or property of a trespasser on real property owned, leased, or rented by another person, including, but not limited to, self-defense or defense of third persons.
SMMAssociates
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Post by SMMAssociates »

I'll bow to the ORC.... That's not quite what I got out of the class about 18 months ago, but it does read better.

However, there's a "warning shot" provision in there that's kind of scary if you miss the BG, and you'd better be able to establish self-defense.

There also seems to be no civil suit "out". That's what FL's new law provides if I read it right. The PD can give you a medal and a dinner, but the "good boy's" family still may get a lottery win....

FL's new law pretty much removes the duty to retreat from all encounters, but what's really happening is that it's removing the "russian roulette" aspect from the criminal side. If you can show you were endangered enough to use deadly force, they can't get you for screwing up the retreat aspects. I like that....

(If you look at the ORC section quoted, you still need to establish a need for deadly force. That's itchy, but it beats the anti-kleenex outfits I was recommending.... :twisted: )

Regards,
Stu.

(Why write a quick note when you can write a novel?)

(Why do those who claim to wish to protect me feel that the best way to do that is to disarm me?)

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robbeaudin
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Post by robbeaudin »

This why I am glad I live in Utah right now. There is absolutely no duty to retreat either in or out of your home. You have the right to stand your ground and you are covered if the reason you shot the person was due to threat of deadly force or serious bodily injury to you or another person and also if the person is in the act of commiting an aggravated violent felony to include rape, carjacking, etc regardless of whether the person is armed. The law in Utah for your home follows the mans home is his castle type of rule. If the person enters your home you can stand your ground. You have the right to shoot them regardless of whether they have a weapon. All that must be proven is that they were not invited in your house or you revoked the invitation (such as you invite someone in and then they threaten you and ask them to leave and then they refuse). Under the law here you are protected from both criminal and civil liability in the event that you kill or injure someone in self defense. It would be nice if Ohio rewrote theirs like the Utah law, believe me this would make my decision to move back alot easier.
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Post by Buckshot »

SMMAssociates wrote:Incognito:

That may not be a "good" 911 call.... Calling 911 before checking who's on the porch might be better....

Particularly if you find yourself in a shooting situation. Our "retreat" requirements pretty much say "call 911 and then go hide or leave the house"....

But that was a good response in general - grab a gun and call the PD....

Regards,
Stu,

There is NO DUTY TO RETREAT IN YOUR HOUSE!

You need to get this incorrect BS out of your mind!

Buckshot
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Post by SMMAssociates »

Buckshot:

We need a smiley for "chiseling stuff off stone tablets"....

That's not what I was taught, however my CHL class started about a week and a half after HB12 went into effect. Good instructors, but this was sort of new.

I rather prefer things without the duty to retreat....

Now we need to think about civil immunity and "outside the house"....

Regards,
Stu.

(Why write a quick note when you can write a novel?)

(Why do those who claim to wish to protect me feel that the best way to do that is to disarm me?)

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rickt
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Just to be clear...

Post by rickt »

Just to be clear...

Inside your home: No duty to retreat [ORC 2305.40 (B)(3)] and NO civil liability [ORC 2305.40 (B)(1)].

Outside your home: You have a duty to retreat and possible civil liability.
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jgarvas
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Post by jgarvas »

I'd love to see where this is in Ohio Revised Code too. To the best of my knowledge most of the use of deadly force "law" in Ohio is the result of case law, not Ohio Revised Code.

I'd like to see where in the ORC you came to this conclusion?

-Jeff
Incognito wrote:HOME SELF DEFENSE-

For what it's worth. This was taken from the latest ORC.
It is best to check with your local attorney however. (IANAL)

An owner, lessee, or renter of real property or a member of the owner's, lessee's, or renter's family who resides on the property is not required to retreat from a building or other structure that is maintained as a permanent or temporary dwelling prior to using reasonably necessary force to repel a trespasser from the building or other structure or to prevent a trespasser from making an unlawful entry into the building or other structure.
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Incognito
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Post by Incognito »

Reviewing the Ohio laws, "Case law", ORC and the plethora of information is something for an attorney to review with you. It is very confusing and will take the advice of a professional attorney well rehearsed in the laws to advise you. Are there any attorneys on the forum?
We Shall Never Forget 9-11-2001
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