"Why didn't you pull that gun?"

Use this forum to post your experience with encounters with law enforcement, criminals, or other encounters as a result of your firearm or potential to be carrying one.

Moderators: Chuck, Mustang380gal, Coordinators, Moderators

User avatar
DontTreadOnMe
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 1750
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 11:11 am
Location: SW Ohio

Re: "Why didn't you pull that gun?"

Post by DontTreadOnMe »

WayneB wrote:So, the guy is walking out of my house carrying my TV. I whack him on the arm or across the back and shoulders with my bat.
What's your reasonable best-case scenario here? He drops the tv and takes off. So now you've got a probably broken tv instead of no tv.

What's the downside? You miss the back and accidentally hit him in the head and he either dies or gets a serious head injury. Good chance you get charged. You try to argue "non-deadly force" but since that includes "serious physical harm" that's off the table. Hello felony. Goodbye freedom and ever owning guns again.

Maybe you get lucky and don't get charged. You get sued. Ohio's civil immunity provisions don't apply because of the "reasonably necessary force" condition and the fact that Ohio doesn't legally allow deadly force (force likely to cause death or serious physical harm) to protect property.

I'm back to "use deadly force only when you must, to protect yourself or your loved ones". If you're using anything beyond your own physical strength or pepper spray, that substantially increases the chance you are (or may be judged to be) using force greater than allowable. Live how you want to live, but me, I hope to remember that stuff can be replaced, lives can't.
carmen fovozzo
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 19033
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:08 am
Location: NEO

Re: "Why didn't you pull that gun?"

Post by carmen fovozzo »

Man..Your starting to sound like me.....and that's scarey. :wink:
Life is full of God given coincidences..
A MEMBER OF OFCC SINCE 2004...
Thanks for shopping at Charmin Carmens
User avatar
Chuck
OFCC Director
OFCC Director
Posts: 4753
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:06 am
Location: Licking County

Re: "Why didn't you pull that gun?"

Post by Chuck »

Tweed Ring wrote:A front jab to the lower abdomen will not break any bones, if done correctly. A spin strike to the hamstring will not break any bones, if done correctly. A variety of restraining techniques, applied to the opponent's arm will not break any bones, if done correctly. Application of trauma can be controlled - trauma can be escalated, if needed.
Do you still teach?
Ain't activism fun?

"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington

"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
Tweed Ring
Posts: 17812
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:15 am

Re: "Why didn't you pull that gun?"

Post by Tweed Ring »

I can still do the classroom portion of the class but my current health issues preclude my doing all the required gymnasium/physical skills portion.

Most of the Basic Course is comprised of the gymnasium/physical skills portion. Much of the Instructor Course is classroom, but there's still a lot of gymnasium work.

As a Senior Instructor Trainer, I tend to serve as a consultant. I do have trainers affiliated with my training company who can periodically train both classroom and physical skills, as their time and career paths permit.

We're all getting older and it shows.
User avatar
Chuck
OFCC Director
OFCC Director
Posts: 4753
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:06 am
Location: Licking County

Re: "Why didn't you pull that gun?"

Post by Chuck »

I occasionally come across people who for one reason or another, are seeking instruction in less than lethal means of self defense.

Just checking,,,,
Ain't activism fun?

"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington

"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
User avatar
Werz
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 5506
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:37 am

Re: "Why didn't you pull that gun?"

Post by Werz »

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
To prevail on a nondeadly-force affirmative defense, one must show by a preponderance of the evidence that (1) he was not at fault in creating the situation, (2) he reasonably believed that some force was necessary to defend himself against the imminent use of unlawful force, and (3) the force used was not likely to cause death or great bodily harm.
Cleveland v. Welms, 169 Ohio App. 3d 600, 2006-Ohio-6441
By the same token:
"As this court explained in State v. Puckett, Franklin App. No. 06AP-330, 2006-Ohio-5696, at ¶22 'the degree of force permitted depends upon what is reasonably necessary to protect that individual from the imminent use of unlawful force.' See, also, Akron v. Dokes (1986), 31 Ohio App.3d 24, 25; Chillicothe v. Knight (1992), 75 Ohio App.3d 544, 550 (stating that '[t]o establish self-defense in a nondeadly-force case, one may use such force as the circumstances require in order to defend against danger which one has good reason to apprehend'); State v. Fox (1987), 36 Ohio App.3d 78."
State v. McGowan, 2008-Ohio-5894, at ¶26 (10th Dist.).
I am not required to stand toe-to-toe with an assailant and slug it out under the Marquess of Queensbury Rules. That which incapacitates the assailant effectively and efficiently is that which is necessary to protect me. A properly instructed jury will be told:
"If the defendant used more force than reasonably necessary and if the force used is greatly disproportionate to the apparent danger, then the defense of self-defense is not available." OJI CR 421.23(3).
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon
"Remember that protecting our gun rights still boils down to keeping a majority in the electorate, and that our daily activities can have the impact of being ambassadors for the gun culture ..."
-- BobK
Open carry is a First Amendment exercise.
User avatar
DontTreadOnMe
OFCC Patron Member
OFCC Patron Member
Posts: 1750
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 11:11 am
Location: SW Ohio

Re: "Why didn't you pull that gun?"

Post by DontTreadOnMe »

Werz wrote:I am not required to stand toe-to-toe with an assailant and slug it out under the Marquess of Queensbury Rules. That which incapacitates the assailant effectively and efficiently is that which is necessary to protect me. A properly instructed jury will be told:
"If the defendant used more force than reasonably necessary and if the force used is greatly disproportionate to the apparent danger, then the defense of self-defense is not available." OJI CR 421.23(3).
That's not necessarily all they'll be told though, or exactly how it will be worded:
The law allows a person confronted with a threat of death or great bodily harm to utilize deadly force in self-defense. (Fox at 79.) However, to allow a person confronted with non-deadly force to utilize deadly force in self-defense would be inherently unreasonable. Therefore, when giving a non-deadly force self-defense instruction, it is not improper for the court to state that such a defense is only applicable if the force used by the defendant did not rise to the level of deadly force, i.e. force likely to cause death or great bodily harm. The trial court did not err in including this language in the instructions to the jury. State v. Speakman, 2001-Ohio-2437
Another recent case which speaks directly to the question at-hand:
Under a defense of property claim, a defendant must "present evidence that he reasonably believed that his conduct was necessary to defend his property against the imminent use of unlawful force, and the force used was not likely to cause death or great bodily harm." State v. Moses, 2014-Ohio-1748
Tweed Ring
Posts: 17812
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:15 am

Re: "Why didn't you pull that gun?"

Post by Tweed Ring »

There are also the possibility of various disparities based on differences in age, physical condition, physical disability, skill levels, etc. As one of my attorneys says, “It depends…”
Post Reply