Gun confiscated. Failure to notify.

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tbrew85
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Gun confiscated. Failure to notify.

Post by tbrew85 »

Heard an interesting story tonight from a good friend of mine. This friend is not one to embellish so I believe every word of what she had to say.

In December, she got a speeding ticket from a Butler County Sheriff’s Deputy. She didn’t have her proof of insurance with her (although she was insured). She subsequently got her info to BCSO and all was fine.
She was in the process of moving from Hamilton to Trenton during this time. Apparently, after providing the required proof to BCSO, and thinking everything was taken care of, she was sent a letter from BMV, to her old address, requiring proof of insurance within 21 days. She didn’t get the letter. Her license was suspended and that notification was sent to her old address as well. So, from January thru April 30th, she is unwittingly driving on a suspended license.
On April 30th, as she is taking her 6 year old son to Frischs, she is pulled over by a FAIRFIELD TOWNSHIP police officer. She states he was very aggressive in the way he approached her window. She already had her DL and CHL out and ready to hand to him, not having any idea why she is being pulled over. She states that he began by screaming at her, frightening her and the 6 year old. She is trying to question why she was pulled over and he is yelling at her that she knows her license is suspended. He sees the CHL and asks where the gun is and she tells him it’s in the center console. He orders her out of the vehicle. She still has her hands on the steering wheel and asks if she may turn off the car. He firmly tells her no, and she then exits the vehicle, with it still running. He puts her in his cruiser and for 10 minutes, while several other units are arriving for backup, her and the officer are in the patrol car while the 6 year old is still in her car. Engine running. GUN STILL IN CENTER CONSOLE.
He ends up confiscating the gun, and towing the car. She was NOT arrested. Her boyfriend arrived and the officer gave HIM the girls DL, CHL, and the ticket. The boyfriend asks about the gun and the officer tells him its up to the court.
The next day, she goes to BMV and gets everything straightened out. (She has NEVER been without insurance).
She is charged with driving under suspension, driving without insurance, FAILURE TO NOTIFY and it seems like there was one other charge that Im forgetting.
On court date she is told by her attorney that the prosecutor has dropped charges relating to the suspension and offered to reduce the M1 failure to notify if she is willing to plead guilty to a lesser charge. Her choices are M4 disorderly conduct or MM disorderly conduct, but either way, she is forfeiting the gun. Im not sure what the other parameters where in her choices between the M4/MM. Or, if she wants to go to trial it will be a M1 Failure to notify. On her attorneys advice she pleads to a MM disorderly conduct. There is no suspension of DL or CHL, but she no longer has her gun. She was told by her attorney that the decision to return the gun was “officer discretion”. She was told that the officer was keeping it for “department use”. The gun is a freaking Keltec PF9.


She tells me that in the police report, the officer notes that he saw the CHL within 30 seconds of approaching the window and asked her where the firearm was, and she told him. She tells me that before he saw the CHL, she was unable to notify because “He was going off. I was scared to death. He was acting like a psycho. Ive never seen or heard a police officer act like that. I didn’t know what was going on”.
She states that throughout the report there are numerous errors of fact.
She went to the FFT police department to file a complaint about the way she was treated. When verbally asking about dashcam video, she states she was told that “We don’t have dashcams in our vehicles”. She didn’t ask about audio recordings.
I know there is a lot missing in this story, and that’s mostly my fault because she told me about this a few hours ago and Im sure Im forgetting some of the details that she relayed to me. This is one of the most honest people I know. I have zero doubt she is being truthful.
If anyone has any questions I can speak to her to fill in the details.
She is furious about the way the entire stop was handled and the way things ended
I would like to know how to file a FOI request to get all relevant info for this stop (Audio/visual recordings, radio traffic, police reports, information regarding the confiscated firearm, etc).
Also any court records that are available.
I know the gun is a lost cause because she very reluctantly agreed to forfeit it, but it seems to me that a lot went wrong with her attorney.
I believe the officer that pulled her over is the new owner of a Keltec PF9.

Some of you may remember my encounter with Fairfield township a while back…
http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php? ... p#p4138099" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Its late, Im tired, I hope this wasn’t a chore to read. I’m too tired to thoroughly proof read it tonight. :oops:
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"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." - Robert Heinlein
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BobK
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Re: Gun confiscated. Failure to notify.

Post by BobK »

Sorry, but I am not sympathetic.

She failed to update her address as required, and thus missed getting notifications from the BMV. This situation was 100% self inflicted.

She should simply chalk the gun up as a "stupid tax" (taxed for being stupid), note the lesson and learn from it, and move on.

What is the point of open record requests and dash cam and all the other uproar? Her feelings were hurt because the guy yelled at her? She was committing a crime. She pled guilty.

BTW, your accusation that the officer now owns a nice little gun is ridiculous. If the gun was an issue in the court ruling, that means it was entered into evidence. The LEO obviously didn't pocket it.

I see frequently truck drivers who fail to notify the BMV of their local state when their address changes. The BMV sends them a notice of suspension for failing to pay a ticket, or failing to pay child support, or failure to self-certify their updated medical card, or any other failure that results in a suspension. Next they are getting pulled over and it is a disaster. I had one independent contractor (owner-operator) under lease that lived in Denver. He was pulled over just north of Albany NY and was found that he had been driving on an expired license for 6 months. His truck was towed and he was left at a truck stop. We had to get a different truck/driver to recover the freight and make the delivery. He had to borrow money from someone to fly home to Denver, go into the BMV, get his license reinstated (with fines), fly back to Albany, and get his truck out of the tow yard. This cost the OO substantial sums of money.

I have another friend who is an independent contractor (owner-operator) driver that lives in Cleveland, TN. He failed to update his new medical card with the TN DMV so his license was suspended. Since he had moved and did not update his address, he did not know his license was suspended. Jim was stopped in Missoula Montana with predictable results. He paid for a colleague of his to fly from Atlanta to Montana and then drive his truck to finish delivering the freight and then drive the truck back to Tennesse. He also lost about two weeks of revenue while he was getting his license reinstated.

Both cases cost those truck drivers thousands of dollars. That is why I frequently counsel and remind drivers to protect their means of earning a living by ensuring their address is always up to date with the BMV.

By the way, don't get offended by the term "stupid tax". I have paid that "stupid tax" myself on numerous occasions when I had to face the consequences of my own stupidity. My objective in such situations is to learn a lesson from the occasion so that I never have to pay that particular "stupid tax" for the same situation a second time.
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Chuck
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Re: Gun confiscated. Failure to notify.

Post by Chuck »

Sounds like she should have fought the notification charge to me
I hope her attorney gave her a discount
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tbrew85
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Re: Gun confiscated. Failure to notify.

Post by tbrew85 »

Bob… if she would have had her proof of insurance with her on the initial ticket the whole thing would have been avoided. I totally understand the stupid tax. But that doesnt excuse poor behavior on the part of the officer.

Her anger at the officer isnt for being pulled over. The entire suspension aspect was fixed within 24 hours of the incident.

She was charged with failure to notify when even the officer notes that he saw her CHL, and was told where her gun was, within 30 seconds of arriving at the window. His initial approach to her was entirely un called for. It sounds "harless_like" to me the way she describes it.

She tells me the report is full of statements that are either deceptive or completely false.

And since when is it up to officer discretion vs a judge with regard to returning the firearm?

I would like to see video or hear audio and compare it to the officers report.

She is also angry about her son being left in the still running vehicle with a loaded gun for 10 minutes.
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"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." - Robert Heinlein
tbrew85
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Re: Gun confiscated. Failure to notify.

Post by tbrew85 »

Chuck wrote:Sounds like she should have fought the notification charge to me
I hope her attorney gave her a discount
I told her that based on everything she told me, her attorney didn't do her any favors. She shouldn't have pled guilty to anything.

ETA… she tells me her attorney gave her the option to fight it but told her it would get very expensive. Sh2 said she couldn't afford to fight it.
Last edited by tbrew85 on Sat May 17, 2014 8:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
Proud father of a US Army Soldier

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." - Robert Heinlein
tbrew85
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Re: Gun confiscated. Failure to notify.

Post by tbrew85 »

And… its fairfield township. There are numerous instances of people on here having some kind of conflict with fairfield township regarding firearms.
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Re: Gun confiscated. Failure to notify.

Post by CroManGun »

Sounds like she had incompetent legal representation. False statements on the police report should have been challenged. The notification within 30 seconds should have been made pivotal testimony. The biggest stupid tax here was the attorney fee. Hope she can consider this an eye-opening learning experience and move on from here.
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pirateguy191
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Re: Gun confiscated. Failure to notify.

Post by pirateguy191 »

Me thinks the good friend should have contacted you while this was going on. You may have been able to help her.
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tbrew85
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Re: Gun confiscated. Failure to notify.

Post by tbrew85 »

BobK wrote: BTW, your accusation that the officer now owns a nice little gun is ridiculous.

Your right, it is ridiculous. I would never call a PF9 a nice little gun. I think they are garbage. ;)
Proud father of a US Army Soldier

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tbrew85
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Re: Gun confiscated. Failure to notify.

Post by tbrew85 »

pirateguy191 wrote:Me thinks the good friend should have contacted you while this was going on. You may have been able to help her.

We have discussed this. I could certainly have recommended an attorney that is familiar with firearms situations.
Proud father of a US Army Soldier

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." - Robert Heinlein
tbrew85
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Re: Gun confiscated. Failure to notify.

Post by tbrew85 »

I talked to her again this morning. While its too long to post, the whole address change thing, is a combination of errors on her part and the part of the local BMV. Seems everyrhing was changed EXCEPT for the vehicle registration, and she was unaware.

Still, no one is complaining about the reason for the stop. It shows up on leads that the tags are suspended, you get pullled over. The actions, demeanor and veracity of the officers statements however, is what she is complaining about.

So, if just out of curiosity I want to view all pertinent info, how do i go about it?
Proud father of a US Army Soldier

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." - Robert Heinlein
tbrew85
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Re: Gun confiscated. Failure to notify.

Post by tbrew85 »

"BTW, your accusation that the officer now owns a nice little gun is ridiculous. If the gun was an issue in the court ruling, that means it was entered into evidence. The LEO obviously didn't pocket it."

What happens to that firearm now though? This is fairfield township. Im not so sure its that obvious at this point.
Last edited by tbrew85 on Sat May 17, 2014 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Proud father of a US Army Soldier

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Re: Gun confiscated. Failure to notify.

Post by Chuck »

tbrew85 wrote:
Chuck wrote:Sounds like she should have fought the notification charge to me
I hope her attorney gave her a discount
I told her that based on everything she told me, her attorney didn't do her any favors. She shouldn't have pled guilty to anything.

ETA… she tells me her attorney gave her the option to fight it but told her it would get very expensive. Sh2 said she couldn't afford to fight it.
Shouldn't cost anything to get that dropped, if the charging officers report says thirty seconds
Ain't activism fun?

"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. " - George Washington

"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.
And because I can not do everything, I will not refuse to do the something I can do.
What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of GOD, I will do."
- Edward Everett Hale (descendant of Nathan Hale)
tbrew85
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Location: Middletown, Ohio

Re: Gun confiscated. Failure to notify.

Post by tbrew85 »

Chuck wrote:
tbrew85 wrote:
Chuck wrote:Sounds like she should have fought the notification charge to me
I hope her attorney gave her a discount
I told her that based on everything she told me, her attorney didn't do her any favors. She shouldn't have pled guilty to anything.

ETA… she tells me her attorney gave her the option to fight it but told her it would get very expensive. Sh2 said she couldn't afford to fight it.
Shouldn't cost anything to get that dropped, if the charging officers report says thirty seconds
Just one more reason id like to see everything myself. She read the entire report to me over the phone. He did say 30 seconds. If one were to read the report alone, it sounds bad on her part. She maintains there are inaccuracies in said report.
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HancockCountyHAl
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Re: Gun confiscated. Failure to notify.

Post by HancockCountyHAl »

So the officer left a 6 year old alone with a loaded gun? Any charges?
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