Without night sights...

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Brian D.
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Re: Without night sights...

Post by Brian D. »

TJW815, Mr. Glock:

I've spent more hours practicing, training, and match shooting in low light than Allen, mainly because of being into firearms since...well, a lot of years now. I must concur with him about the night sights, hear me out.

Early on, when I just had tritium on one or two handguns, I got a heck of a deal on another set and had no gun to put them on at the time. I'd been doing some low light stuff by that point but no more was pending immediately. So, I took that set of sights and taped them to a ballpoint pen which then accompanied me everyplace the next several weeks. Obviously this allowed me many opportunities to see how the useful the sights would be under a wide variety of variables, without drawing a handgun and pointing it all over the place.

I messed with that tritium pen in the city, out in the boonies, under direct and indirect light whether natural or artificial, and with the light coming from different angles such as from above, behind, etc. I looked at the sights when it was rainy, foggy, snowy, clear, overcast, whatever.

Point being there were definitely times and conditions where they would be very helpful. "Low light" is not an absolute term, it's different from one instance to the next.
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Mr. Glock
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Re: Without night sights...

Post by Mr. Glock »

I don't disagree with you Brian, that they are useful in some situations, and I did mention that earlier. I think a lot depends on how each person sees in those situations, as well....we don't all see the same.

And, Allen, I'm adding this to my last comment. :mrgreen: , just so you know I made it with the best intentions.
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Re: Without night sights...

Post by carmen fovozzo »

It amazes me that everyone ( except Brian) is posting about night sites and flashlights....

Here is my 2 cents......you first screwed up by acting like a LEO and clearing your house....Don't care how much trainng you have....If someone was in the house and you were attacked and put out of commission you would have left your family defenseless....

You should of called 911 and stayed outside with family in a safe place till LE came..

Fiber Optic sights are nice along with a laser..
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Re: Without night sights...

Post by captainstormy »

People say don't clear your house. It's probably the right answer, but not the realistic one. You can't just call the cops every time there is a weird noise in your house of a night or when you come home. If I did that it would happen once a week at least.

Just the other day after the wife and I came home from dinner there was an unusual sound coming from upstairs. Turns out it was some branches hitting the siding of the house. Hasn't happened since I've been living here in June before but with the high winds lately it did. I remember one night not too long after we moved in the wife and I were woken up by the sound of broken glass and the dog barking. Turned out that a decorative shelf the wife had put up fell off the wall since she didn't find any stud and the glass figurines she had on it broke and it scared the dog.

That's just two times that come to mind but I'm sure there have been others. I get what people are saying about just calling the cops and all. If I knew that there was a bad guy in my home, no doubt I would do that. However, just hearing something strange happens fairly often. You can't call the cops about that all the time. They would eventually charge you with filing false complaints and the one time it wasn't false would be the time they decided to start ignoring you.

Personally, I won't own a handgun without a night site anymore. I'm not really a collector though. Every firearm I own is for Self/Home defense, hunting, or clay shooting. I'm not one of those guys that has a bunch or guns or any safe queens. Night sites aren't the solution to every problem, but I've yet to see a case where having night sites makes things worse then having the factory sites one a firearm.

IMO, you should get and carry a small tactical light in your pocket and train and learn how to use a pistol + flashlight. I'll keep a weapon mounted light on dedicated home defense guns all the time, and a weapon light in my night stand I slip onto my Glock of a night. I prefer lights using AA batteries myself over the more expensive CR123 batteries. They don't last as long, but they are cheap and easy to find. I order them off of woot.com for about $15 bucks for a hundred or so. Don't try to use rechargeables. Aside from a possible low light self defense situation, it's still often handy to have a flashlight on ya.

It doesn't have to be a super expensive one either. Anything with an LED Bulb (preferably a CREE) and 80+ lumens would be fine. I'm a big fan of foursevens brand lights. They work great, and the quality is good (not great, but good) and the price is low. I've tested them out quite a bit myself as weapon mounted lights at the gun range. I put one on a 12G shotgun via a clamp mount and spent the better part of a day (around 6 hours) shooting clays. Light still worked fine afterwards, and while I had it one and firing it never cut out or anything either. I carry this one typically: https://www.foursevens.com/products/QTA-AE.

As for not being able to ID someone, that is part of what the light is for but I say it depends on the situation. The only two people in the whole world who have a key to my home is the wife and I. Maybe if you're the kind of person who gives keys or entry codes to people all the time that's a different story. Depends on the situation.

So as long as I know where my wife is, I know it isn't someone who should be in there. One could argue that someone who broke into your home might not mean you any harm. However, I argue that you should assume they do. It's far more likely that someone who broken into your home can and will do you harm then it being someone friendly.
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Re: Without night sights...

Post by Thug Hunter »

Definitely a bad idea to clear a house solo. I've cleared at least several hundred buildings in the real world, both in Ohio and Iraq, but none alone. The only times I can recall catching a burglar inside was when a neighbor saw him breaking in and called us. Trust me when I say the police don't mind a false alarm. I will say we don't want to see good people get victimized, but boy, is it fun to catch a burglar.

Added-- I wouldn't leave my family in the driveway. Have them go down the street or to someone else's house. Good point by the above poster about crying wolf.

I don't think there is one perfect answer to all low light room clearing/ gun fighting situations. I've used- in both training and the real world- a variety of hand held lights, pistols and rifles with and without night sights, weapon mounted lights (on pistols, carbines, and shotguns) visible lasers (I went through a Crimson Trace instructor course) and infrared lasers with night vision goggles. I have completed the low light course at TDI and much low light training, including live fire, simunition and airsoft scenarios through the military and as a civilian cop.

Cost is a limiting factor for everyone-- police departments, military units (even SOCOM and JSOC), but especially for private citizens. Add in that electronic devices can and will fail at a bad time. I broke a supposedly unbreakable weapon light on my carbine in Iraq. I also had to change batteries outside the wire. I've had batteries die while doing my civilian job.

With all that in mind, here are a few things (roughly lowest to highest cost) I like within a realistic budget for an individual:

Tritium night sights. Having used weapons with and without, I can say they do make a difference. I think they make more of a difference on a pistol than a rifle. In fact, on a police rifle, I've found they can cause a slightly higher point of impact than I like at 100 yards. For longer shots with a rifle in the military, I will have an IR laser and night vision.

A good hand held light, with a momentary on switch. I don't like the idea of always having a light on. I like to illuminate briefly, and then move in the dark. From what I've seen in force on force scenarios, a constantly on light makes a really good target.

A good weapon light. I like the Surefire X300U with a DG switch. One of the instructors at the TDI low light course said that light is so good it was like cheating. If you use a different set up, do not use your trigger finger to activate the light- use your thumb.

Strobe lights are okay, but I think some people over rate their effectiveness. I've been on both sides of a strobe. They seem to be more effective the brighter they are, but the same is true of non strobing lights. The brighter the better. I've not been temporarily blinded by my own light, but I've caused many criminals to shut their eyes and snap their heads back when I shined a bright light in their eyes.

A visible laser. There are several out there. I have used only crimson trace, but have played with others. I like CT because they are pressure activated, meaning I can easily term them on and off. Some of the other brands are turned on and pretty much must be left on. I like a momentary switch, just like with a light.

All that said, some cops are in the habit of just turning on the lights as soon as they get to them. I've noticed that those officers are more complacent and less tactically sound.

I think a reliable pistol with night sights, weapon light, and CT laser would be an excellent self defense/ home security weapon. If possible, have a good hand held, too. It would have a variety of options for different lighting conditions, and backups if one part of the low light system fails.

I am actually looking for a good EDC light right now. I think I'd like a single AA with a pocket clip. Any suggestions?
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Re: Without night sights...

Post by TSiWRX »

Mr. Glock wrote:Ok, Allen, that makes more sense. I mis-interpreted your post.
It's OK, bro. I don't think we were really intended for us to communicate in this manner in the first place :lol: - a lot gets lost by being on the keyboard. :oops:

Like you said later:
Mr. Glock wrote: And, Allen, I'm adding this to my last comment. :mrgreen: , just so you know I made it with the best intentions.
:wink: :)
But, with 22 hours of low/no light training, you are either a slow learner or you are hesitating to give your real opinion. And I don't think you are a slow learner. OCD maybe, but not a slow learner.
You obviously have yet to meet my wife. :P

I'm not the brightest bulb around, but I'll admit to not being the dimmest, either. Nevertheless, with only 22 hours - and I'm speaking of that "only" as a very, very honest assessment - I really am just now starting to more viscerally understand the difficulties of this particular aspect of shooting. The courses which I've attended are small in nature and have all been at the beginner level (my self-stated #1 goal going into each of these courses was "not to shoot my flashlight hand/arm"), so I probably don't even yet know what I don't know. :oops:

In reading various AARs of much more experienced shooters admitting to being absolutely pwned by more intense low-light courses because they do not have night-sights, I cannot help but wonder if I'm missing something that's blatantly obvious. And again, this is reflected in the posts of other members here who have logged (many!) more hours than I have, groping around in the dark with other adults. :mrgreen:

So, I guess, bruddah, that was the long way around of saying that right now, I really am as conflicted as my posts would suggest. I can see both sides of the argument, no pun intended.


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TJW815 wrote: Added:

If you can aquire your target visually your sight package does not matter. Practice point shooting!! Train yourself to piont your finger where you are looking. Then you will naturally point your gun in that area as you draw. 99% of the time in a self defense scenario you wont be aiming down the sights anyway. So having the proper "sight package" is mute anyway.
I think this depends on just what the scenario happens to be.

In the example I gave above where the gun is in the dark and the target is out in the open and well-lit, given the specifics of distance and backdrop...yes, I'm more than comfortable point-shooting under certain circumstances (and here, I'm a complete point-shooting novice; track my posts [same screen-name] on DefensiveCarry.com to see what I've done, so far), but others, much less so.
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Re: Without night sights...

Post by Thug Hunter »

I have practiced point shooting, including taping the sights so they can't be used, and in extreme close quarter shooting training. I think it is fine for a very close range engagement, when speed becomes even more important. However, I think it is sorely lacking at even just slightly longer distances... Down a hallway for example.

There are a bunch of places in my house where a shot would be less than 10 feet-- fine for point shooting. There are also some that are over 10 yards.
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Re: Without night sights...

Post by Brian D. »

Thug Hunter wrote:I have practiced point shooting, including taping the sights so they can't be used, and in extreme close quarter shooting training. I think it is fine for a very close range engagement, when speed becomes even more important. However, I think it is sorely lacking at even just slightly longer distances... Down a hallway for example.

There are a bunch of places in my house where a shot would be less than 10 feet-- fine for point shooting. There are also some that are over 10 yards.
Point shooting also seems to degrade noticeably when one isn't in a nice, upright position during the engagement. Get low and lean around the weak hand side of cover for a quick example of this. (I meant that advice for all, not specifically you, TH.)
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Re: Without night sights...

Post by TSiWRX »

^ Ooooooh. I have to try that.

I'm such a point-shooting novice that I haven't even started down that route, yet (like I said, I don't know what I don't know). :oops:


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Thug Hunter wrote: I don't think there is one perfect answer to all low light room clearing/ gun fighting situations.....
Thanks for taking the time to write all of that. :) More for me to chew and attempt to mentally digest. :)

That's really a lot of good stuff.

Brian D., thanks for weighing-in, too - that bit of going-around-the-yard/house is precisely what I've done the last few days.

And just as both of you have mentioned, "low-light" is really such a huge variable, and like you said, Mr. Glock, we don't all "see" the same, and that just further adds complication to the whole thing. It's for this reason that I know why Carmen favors FO sights. With my eyes being as bad as they are, that's something that I can appreciate. And similar to where he's gone, I'm also going towards the route of the laser - but even then, there are yet still advantages to having night-sights that a laser does not cover. Along this same vein, I'm also one of those guys who prefer "yellower" light - yet for practical reasons, I carry LEDs that are, unfortunately, "cooler" in color-temperature.

It's a hard one to dissect.


----

I am actually looking for a good EDC light right now. I think I'd like a single AA with a pocket clip. Any suggestions?
captainstormy's mention of 4Sevens is a good one, and so are similar lights from Fenix. Streamlight should also have very good offerings that should meet your requirements.
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Brian D.
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Re: Without night sights...

Post by Brian D. »

I can't find a "perfect at all times" sight/light combination for just myself, much less anybody else. At least not all on the same gun at the same time. You start talking about two of the same model handguns, set up a little differently from each other, it could become more feasible. Not too many people are going to take it that far...us windbaggy, frequent contributors to this thread not withstanding. :lol:

Believe that LAPD's SWAT or SRT or the like provided two Kimber 1911s to each individual. One had a mounted light, the other didn't. No idea of the sights provided. (This was depicted in the S.W.A.T movie a few years ago, but I don't know how spot on the gear was to real life.) Likely other agencies have done something similar. Wish we all had their equipment budgets.

More than a little off point but in the same general vein: In some of John Wayne's later western films, his protagonist character had two lever guns, one being shorter barreled and featuring a large loop lever, ostensibly for quicker handling. (The reality of that is dubious in my experience but what the heck, it's THE DUKE, pilgrims. :D ) Anyhow, at some point in the story you'd see Wayne's character make a point of switching from one to the other, before the big showdown.
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Re: Without night sights...

Post by TSiWRX »

Brian D. wrote:...Not too many people are going to take it that far...us windbaggy, frequent contributors to this thread not withstanding. :lol:
Hey, I resemble that statement! :P :oops: :lol:
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Re: Without night sights...

Post by TJW815 »

carmen fovozzo wrote:It amazes me that everyone ( except Brian) is posting about night sites and flashlights....

Here is my 2 cents......you first screwed up by acting like a LEO and clearing your house....Don't care how much trainng you have....If someone was in the house and you were attacked and put out of commission you would have left your family defenseless....

You should of called 911 and stayed outside with family in a safe place till LE came..

Fiber Optic sights are nice along with a laser..
You didn't read my entire post did u?
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Re: Without night sights...

Post by carmen fovozzo »

I just like Brian better then you... :wink:
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Re: Without night sights...

Post by Mr. Glock »

I just picked up a Fenix E11 as an EDC light, being in the same situation as a previous poster. I can't speak to longevity, but the size is quite small, uses a single standard battery (AA)and is pretty bright. The little wrist lanyard wraps around the belt at the correct height so it stays vertical in the pocket and you can just whip it out one handed for everyday tasks. It clicks on/off only, with momentary on with light pressure. I don't want to cycle through low, medium, High, strobe etc...just on/off with a tailcap switch. Surefires et al were just too big.

Also, a negative on night sights....if you can see them in the dark, so can the BG. In total darkness, they are very bright and can be a tell-tale. This is something to be aware of in their use, depending on how you are clearing. If you are by yourself and moving slowly vs in a dynamic entry team, for example.

I also find most night sights harder to see in the day time...I like a nice big white dot upfront for the daytime. Big
Dot sights seem to work the best for me, in general, with the big day sight and a night sight combined up front,
but I'm still working with my first pair. Fiber optic ones..at least the Sig ones....are kind of fragile, but really easy to see. I admitably do not like 3 dots of the same color, so YMMV.
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Re: Without night sights...

Post by TJW815 »

Another option I haven't heard yet is chem lights, aka light sticks. I keep a pack of them in my car for varying degrees of roadside problems. They can give enough light to at the very least id a target in a dark room.

carmen fovozzo wrote:I just like Brian better then you... :wink:
Oh Mr Funny Guy huh. :wink:
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