Vex,Vex wrote:The problem is she hadn't placed anyone else in danger of severe bodily injury or death up to that point, and even when she was trying to get away she did not use the vehicle as a weapon. We (LEOs, CHL'ers, LACs, etc.) respond to deadly force with deadly force, and we don't get to use facts known after the incident to justify prior use of force.BlueMR2 wrote:Looked fine to me. If it takes shooting at her and her van full of kids to potentially keep her from fleeing and killing somebody else and their van full of kids in a head-on collision, I'm all for it.
Even in cases where the vehicle is used as a weapon, we shoot to stop the threat, which is the driver of the vehicle, not the vehicle itself. Similarly, if someone has a handgun pointed at you, you wouldn't shoot at their gun, you would shoot the person with the ability to pull the trigger.
Just like shooting a gun out of someone's hands belongs in the movies, so does shooting out the tires of a fleeing vehicle*.
*Except in extremely rare or unique situations.
This is probably the best post of the thread in summing this situation up regarding the LEO firing the handgun. I go back also to why the backup responding vehicle, knowing this is a flee risk (at that point, she had pulled off once, although still no threat to injure anyone) did not pull in front of vehicle, bumper to bumper, removing the option to pull off again. This video is a news report and excerpted, but I believe the officer shooting is the same officer that failed to block the vehicle in. Not to cross threads but this was a similar mistake with the woman pulling a car up to the White House gates. Everyone focuses on the use of the gun (which IMHO is unjustified as Vex pointed out), but there are a number of techniques that the officers involved failed to use that could have lessened the impact of the woman's inexcusable actions. Vex, I would love your critique on this as to what could have been done at what point. I am asking you to Monday morning QB I know but that is the best way to learn sometimes.
Woman and son should find themselves in jail cells, no question, no excuse. Thousands of people get tickets every day. Some even BS. Almost none of them find it necessary to do what she did. One of the parts of LEO's job is to deal with these circumstances. It's why we require training before putting on a badge. These are not local cops of Mayberry variety, these are state troopers. While we should give some latitude to LEO having to deal with unruly and sometimes you gotta break some eggs to get control (ie sometimes a black eye and bloody nose are what you get as a suspect who resists) that has its limits and the shooting clearly passed those limits.
eyewitness testimony really is. Take the Canton PD with Officer Harless/Diels. I sat in the trial and listen to Diels contradict much of what was plainly visible from the dashcam and sounded credible in doing it.