Shooting death and injury on Alec Baldwin movie set.

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TSiWRX
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Re: Shooting death and injury on Alec Baldwin movie set.

Post by TSiWRX »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVZWVDgErpE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

^ Andrew Branca's analysis, based on what we currently know.

And yes, I've watched it. And yes, I know that it goes against my thinking. :wink: :P
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Re: Shooting death and injury on Alec Baldwin movie set.

Post by catfish86 »

TSiWRX wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVZWVDgErpE

^ Andrew Branca's analysis, based on what we currently know.

And yes, I've watched it. And yes, I know that it goes against my thinking. :wink: :P
I will review this but I am going to call a shot ahead of time on this. For one: https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/a ... t-attorney Fox is reporting that involuntary manslaughter charges are being considered and the DA is saying it will take time to put a case together.

My point to your earlier post is that Alec Baldwin is responsible criminally because one of the key elements of involuntary manslaughter is dependent on if a personal has a duty of ordinary care ie what any reasonable person would do in that situation. In the case of a firearm it can be argued that a person has a duty to follow the rules of firearm safety, especially one that as a matter of their profession handles firearms. As an actor, Baldwin frequently handles firearms.
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Re: Shooting death and injury on Alec Baldwin movie set.

Post by catfish86 »

I did watch that video and New Mexico has its own wording but what I said is essentially correct. It is hard to legally get around Baldwin's criminal liability in this case. BTW, I am a trained paralegal and my comments have been based on an understanding of involuntary manslaughter elements that are generally universal but specific to Ohio.

Now do the Asst Director Hall and the armorer also face criminal liability? Absolutely and I believe they have about the same chances of Baldwin as far as being convicted...juries can always surprise but I am thinking all three of them are convicted if this DA makes a serious and competent effort at prosecuting them.
God,
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
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and the Wisdom to know the difference.

Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.

Gun control is racist.
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Re: Shooting death and injury on Alec Baldwin movie set.

Post by schmieg »

catfish86 wrote:I did watch that video and New Mexico has its own wording but what I said is essentially correct. It is hard to legally get around Baldwin's criminal liability in this case. BTW, I am a trained paralegal and my comments have been based on an understanding of involuntary manslaughter elements that are generally universal but specific to Ohio.

Now do the Asst Director Hall and the armorer also face criminal liability? Absolutely and I believe they have about the same chances of Baldwin as far as being convicted...juries can always surprise but I am thinking all three of them are convicted if this DA makes a serious and competent effort at prosecuting them.
I am reminded of the scene in the underrated movie, Rocky & Bullwinkle, where the judge, Whoopi Goldberg, realizes that Rocky and Bullwinkle are celebrities, so she dismisses the charges against them and sends the FBI agent to jail.
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Re: Shooting death and injury on Alec Baldwin movie set.

Post by catfish86 »

One of the ironic parts of this is that Baldwin's activist role in the anti-gun movement is a problem for him. One of the elements of involuntary manslaughter is that Baldwin had knowledge that a firearm is an inherently dangerous instrument...hard to argue that he did not when he is a passionate advocate that it is essentially too dangerous for people to be allowed to own.
God,
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
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and the Wisdom to know the difference.

Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.

Gun control is racist.
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Re: Shooting death and injury on Alec Baldwin movie set.

Post by bignflnut »

After watching the Andrew B video, his only defense is that Actor Baldwin relied on the professionalism of those hired by Producer Baldwin to keep the set safe, in accordance with the regulations of the industry.

That was clearly not going well and Producer Baldwin had a duty to keep the set safe, but that won't be the point of the trial (Actor Baldwin, if anyone, will be on trial).

The only defense is to muddy the minds of the jury - basic finger pointing - causing reasonable doubt, and I would put down $50 that says a jury is not seated to deal with the matter in the tenure of the state AG or whomever is supposed to bring the charge. A newly elected official, however, may make this a campaign point and score on the reluctance to bring Baldwin to justice. If Baldwin was smart, he'd already be on Epstein Island, far away from extradition.

How quickly will powerful Soros operatives threaten that charging authority? That person shall quickly buckle. The media will not have a building drumbeat of questions on the AG, and will let this all go away.
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Re: Shooting death and injury on Alec Baldwin movie set.

Post by M-Quigley »

Bruenor wrote:
M-Quigley wrote: The actors were given specific instructions that, although they were blank guns, they were NOT to directly aim at anyone, but off to one side slightly. The adult in charge made sure that no one was allowed to "play around with" the guns like some young people might be prone to do. The guy might've been considered a safety Nazi by some but no on died on the set. Sadly today some adults have less sense than teenagers did back then.

I can't imagine a school allowing a production today involving firearms, real or not.
You may recall Jon-Erik Hexum from Voyagers or Coverup , he mishandled a firearm with blanks and sadly paid the price.

Tom Gresham just had a prop master on the latest show talking about a movie he worked on where the cast and crew weren't taking things seriously enough with the blank firing guns.. He finally did a demonstration blowing a hole through the stucco on the side of one of the buildings with a shotgun loaded with blanks.. Cast and crew finally got the message that although they were loaded with 'just blanks' they were still very dangerous.
Something similar was done with the movie production I mentioned. The guy with the blank guns gave a demonstration to everyone, showing them that although they didn't fire regular rounds with bullets, blank guns could still be deadly at close range. In his case he used a handgun a fruit, but everyone got the message.
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Re: Shooting death and injury on Alec Baldwin movie set.

Post by M-Quigley »

Something strange is happening. I'm trying to reply to TSiRWX and I keep getting "You must be logged in first even though I am logged in. I'll try it this way.
A quick Google Image search for "movie where gun is pointed at head" shows countless still pictures of scenes where a gun - discharged or not - was pointed at one actor's head by another. But because safety rules were followed, nothing untoward happened.

In the amateur production I mentioned, there was one scene where the barrel of a gun was in contact with the actor. In that scene a non functional piece was used, you couldn't even chamber a blank in it. Although it was obvious the barrel was solid or plugged from the front, for a side contact filming where it didn't have to be fired it was fine.
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Re: Shooting death and injury on Alec Baldwin movie set.

Post by M-Quigley »

Some good legal analysis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVZWVDgErpE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Shooting death and injury on Alec Baldwin movie set.

Post by catfish86 »

M-Quigley wrote:Something strange is happening. I'm trying to reply to TSiRWX and I keep getting "You must be logged in first even though I am logged in. I'll try it this way.
A quick Google Image search for "movie where gun is pointed at head" shows countless still pictures of scenes where a gun - discharged or not - was pointed at one actor's head by another. But because safety rules were followed, nothing untoward happened.

In the amateur production I mentioned, there was one scene where the barrel of a gun was in contact with the actor. In that scene a non functional piece was used, you couldn't even chamber a blank in it. Although it was obvious the barrel was solid or plugged from the front, for a side contact filming where it didn't have to be fired it was fine.
The defense will likely point out that the rule about pointing in a safe direction often must be violated to tell the story. Prosecution answer is fairly simple: That means you must be double sure that you are practicing the other rules such as ensuring the gun is not loaded. It still boils down to the person pulling a trigger on a gun bears responsibility for what happens when he does.
God,
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.

Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.

Gun control is racist.
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Re: Shooting death and injury on Alec Baldwin movie set.

Post by TSiWRX »

catfish86 wrote:I did watch that video and New Mexico has its own wording but what I said is essentially correct. It is hard to legally get around Baldwin's criminal liability in this case. BTW, I am a trained paralegal and my comments have been based on an understanding of involuntary manslaughter elements that are generally universal but specific to Ohio.

Now do the Asst Director Hall and the armorer also face criminal liability? Absolutely and I believe they have about the same chances of Baldwin as far as being convicted...juries can always surprise but I am thinking all three of them are convicted if this DA makes a serious and competent effort at prosecuting them.
- and -
catfish86 wrote:One of the ironic parts of this is that Baldwin's activist role in the anti-gun movement is a problem for him. One of the elements of involuntary manslaughter is that Baldwin had knowledge that a firearm is an inherently dangerous instrument...hard to argue that he did not when he is a passionate advocate that it is essentially too dangerous for people to be allowed to own.
^ Yup, this is how I'm now understanding it as well.

I now understand the legalities of it - but my brain is still trying to reconcile it with my reasoning. :). Branca's example of the operation of dangerous equipment was what spurred the :idea: moment for me, and after that, it was where I much better understood your reasoning, as based on the law, which is precisely what you'd written in your latest reply to this thread above.


-----

M-Quigley wrote:
A quick Google Image search for "movie where gun is pointed at head" shows countless still pictures of scenes where a gun - discharged or not - was pointed at one actor's head by another. But because safety rules were followed, nothing untoward happened.

In the amateur production I mentioned, there was one scene where the barrel of a gun was in contact with the actor. In that scene a non functional piece was used, you couldn't even chamber a blank in it. Although it was obvious the barrel was solid or plugged from the front, for a side contact filming where it didn't have to be fired it was fine.
^ I would have figured that such safety measures would have been in-place, too. Which is what shocked me so much about Gibson's scene in Lethal Weapon, which I didn't know about, until I'd looked for examples to cite for my replies here. :shock: :!:
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Re: Shooting death and injury on Alec Baldwin movie set.

Post by High Power »

Colin Noir: "Alec Baldwin Shooting Happened Because He Is Anti-Gun"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3vHhnQaryI
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Re: Shooting death and injury on Alec Baldwin movie set.

Post by EricTheBald »

In some thing of an absurdist twist, it appears that the ridiculous Covid rules, which are primarily about virtue signaling, may have been a contributing factor.

From what I gather, the guns were kept on a rolling cart outside of the area where the photography was being done and wheeled in at the last moment. What this means in a practical sense is that when a gun is needed, the cart is rolled in quickly and the weapons handed to the people that are supposed to get them.

Normally, the weapons and armor or would be right there near, but behind the cameras.

Essentially, the change introduced a lot of last minute frenetic activity in the process of distributing the weapons. The armorer they were using that day seems to be less than competent but, had she been in the location she normally would have been, she would have had more time for preparation and safety checking, instead of being rushed.
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Re: Shooting death and injury on Alec Baldwin movie set.

Post by bignflnut »

When one can declare that a budget carrying trillions of currency units will cost nothing, when a change of clothing can be said to change one's chromosomal biology, when we've exchanged natural passions for perverse ones, when "my truth" is what needs to be affirmed at all times... as simple acts of will ("I have declared it, and it is so")...it is not surprising that calling out "Cold Gun" or "Prop Gun" is thought to take away danger.
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Re: Shooting death and injury on Alec Baldwin movie set.

Post by M-Quigley »

It's being reported that 500 rounds were on the set that day. Seems like a lot of rounds for just a Western (unless you're doing a remake of The Wild Bunch or something) but who knows. Not that the amount of ammo had anything to do with the negligence on someones part. You could have 10 thousand rounds on set but as long as they're not in the gun the gun isn't going to go off. The ironic thing is that one of the anti gun groups Baldwin is associated with once advocated that people shouldn't be allowed to mail order 500 or 1000 rounds of ammo, (I think the limit they wanted was 1 or2 boxes of 50 max) In their opinion no law abiding gun owner needs that much ammo. . They said anyone who wants to buy 250 or more rounds at any one time is only doing that because the buyer wants to do a mass shooting and murder lots of innocent people. :(
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