Kenosha

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WY_Not
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Re: Kenosha

Post by WY_Not »

He wants nothing less than the kid to be killed by the mob.
khufford wrote:
Bruenor wrote:Well at least the judge seems sane.. can't imagine the amount of hate towards this kid then having his address be publicly accessible.

https://www.npr.org/2021/02/11/96703320 ... ittenhouse" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Prosecutors had asked Schroeder last week to issue a new arrest warrant and raise Rittenhouse's bail by $200,000, arguing that he violated conditions of his bond. They say he did not inform the court of his change of address.

Attorneys for Rittenhouse say that their client withheld his new address because of threats to his safety.

The judge agreed to keep the new address sealed and available only to certain members of the court moving forward, over protests from prosecutors.
You have to wonder what the prosecutors' motivations are for wanting his address to be public record.
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Re: Kenosha - Evidence hearing

Post by Bruenor »

Hearing to determine what evidence will be allowed in trial is today. First item up a video prosecutors claim shows Rittenhouse wanting to shoot people. Online posts can be hazardous to your freedom, think before you post.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/ ... 07363.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Prosecutors say a 29-second video taken 15 days before the protest shootings shows Rittenhouse watching some men exit a CVS Pharmacy store and commenting that he wished he had his rifle so he could shoot them. Prosecutors say it’s evidence of Rittenhouse’s eagerness to use deadly force.

Other motions on the table Friday include:

— A prosecution request to prevent police use-of-force expert John R. Black from testifying. Assistant District Attorney Thomas Binger argues that the jury does not need an expert to understand the concept of self-defense and police use-of-force strategies are irrelevant in Rittenhouse's case.

— A defense request to exclude evidence related to a July 2020 case in which Rittenhouse allegedly hit a woman who was involved in an altercation with Rittenhouse's younger sister. Defense attorney Mark Richards argues the case has no bearing on whether Rittenhouse acted in self-defense on Aug. 25, 2020.

— A defense request to exclude evidence that Rittenhouse went to a Racine bar in January with members of the Proud Boys dressed in a T-shirt that read “Free as (expletive).” Richards says nothing shows Rittenhouse knew the men before that night or that his presence in Kenosha on Aug. 25, 2020, was connected to the Proud Boys or any other white nationalist group.

— A defense request to introduce evidence that Rosenbaum was convicted of having sexual contact with a minor in Arizona in 2002. Richards argues that supports a defense theory that Rosenbaum attacked Rittenhouse to steal Rittenhouse's gun because Rosenbaum couldn't legally possess a firearm.

— A defense request to dismiss the illegal firearm charge. Richards maintains that under Wisconsin law, Rittenhouse was too young to possess short-barreled shotguns and rifles. His AR-style rifle doesn't meet that definition.
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Re: Kenosha

Post by Bruenor »

Use of force expert testimony preview...

https://www.wqad.com/article/news/natio ... 4ce7641fae" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
a use-of-force expert called by the defense testified at a pretrial hearing Tuesday.

The expert, John Black, spent hours outlining the moments that led to Kyle Rittenhouse's decisions to shoot Joseph Rosenbaum, Anthony Huber and Gaige Grosskreutz, offering a preview of the defense team's strategy when Rittenhouse's trial begins next month. Black testified that video shows Rosenbaum chasing Rittenhouse and reaching for the teenager's gun, Huber attacking Rittenhouse with a skateboard and trying to wrestle away his gun, and Grosskreutz running at him with a pistol in his hand.

“A citizen in that position, given those indicators, would it be reasonable for them to believe they were about to be assaulted?” Black said. “I would argue yes."
Black said Rittenhouse maintained control of his rifle throughout and didn't just spray the crowd randomly with bullets.

Assistant District Attorney Thomas Binger argued that Black is an expert in the use of force by police, not civilians. He also questioned whether Rittenhouse would have been justified in using lethal force if he hadn't had a gun.

Black responded that he has taught civilian self-defense courses and that Binger was presenting a hypothetical situation. But if Rittenhouse hadn't been armed with a gun, he may not have been justified in using deadly force, Black said.

Schroeder held off on deciding whether Black can testify at the trial until he hears testimony from a prosecution expert on the use of force. He scheduled an Oct. 25 hearing for that testimony.

The judge began the hearing by denying a defense request to drop the weapons possession charge against Rittenhouse. Wisconsin law prohibits anyone under age 18 from going armed, but Rittenhouse's attorneys argued that statutes actually prohibit minors only from carrying short-barreled rifles and shotguns. The only other prohibitions on minors possessing firearms lie in hunting statutes, and all they say is that children under age 12 can't hunt with firearms, they said.

Schroeder said he might revisit the question later, calling the statutes unclear.
Use of force expert.. what is Kyle being treated like a Police officer now ?
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Re: Kenosha

Post by JustaShooter »

But if Rittenhouse hadn't been armed with a gun, he may not have been justified in using deadly force, Black said.
I don't understand this - what does having the means to protect yourself have to do with being justified to use deadly force to defend yourself?
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Re: Kenosha

Post by Bruenor »

JustaShooter wrote:
But if Rittenhouse hadn't been armed with a gun, he may not have been justified in using deadly force, Black said.
I don't understand this - what does having the means to protect yourself have to do with being justified to use deadly force to defend yourself?
Good question, one of the guys attacking him had a firearm, so he should be justified to use deadly force defending himself.
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"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."

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Re: Kenosha

Post by M-Quigley »

JustaShooter wrote:
But if Rittenhouse hadn't been armed with a gun, he may not have been justified in using deadly force, Black said.
I don't understand this - what does having the means to protect yourself have to do with being justified to use deadly force to defend yourself?
I'm guessing but I think the expert is referring to the fact that if someone who does not have a firearm and is attacking someone with a firearm, if the victim is disarmed that firearm can be used against them. For example, you hear a noise in your house, you have a gun and find someone who is unarmed. The intruder tries to come toward you with something (like a skateboard) A reasonable and prudent person might assume the intruder is trying to disarm you, or trying to obtain a deadly weapon (yours) to use against you. It doesn't (or shouldn't) automatically mean that the person who initially had the gun is somehow at fault for having the gun, either in a house or on the street merely and legally guarding a building, but I'm guessing the prosecutor will try to spin it to the jury that Rittenhouse was somehow responsible for himself getting attacked. :roll: If merely holding a gun in front of a building open carry without pointing it at anyone is a valid excuse to attack someone then some might make the argument that legally it would be open season on all the BLM and Antifa people who were carrying also in various places.
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Re: Kenosha

Post by M-Quigley »

Bruenor wrote:
JustaShooter wrote:
But if Rittenhouse hadn't been armed with a gun, he may not have been justified in using deadly force, Black said.
I don't understand this - what does having the means to protect yourself have to do with being justified to use deadly force to defend yourself?
Good question, one of the guys attacking him had a firearm, so he should be justified to use deadly force defending himself.
You're correct if you're specifically referring to defending against only the guy with the gun, but I'm guessing the expert was strictly referring to the attacker that didn't have a firearm. Firearms are pretty much assumed to be deadly weapons by the general public but skateboards are not, or rather they aren't designed for that specific purpose. They obviously can be used as one, just like a lot of things can be used as one.
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Re: Kenosha

Post by catfish86 »

Recently the prosecutor argued in an evidentiary hearing that a man armed with a gun is never justified in shooting an unarmed man. The judge somehow managed to respond without calling or insinuating the prosecutor is a complete moron who should turn in his law degree.
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Re: Kenosha

Post by Bruenor »

Trial Begins.

Trial Day one Video
https://www.wisconsinrightnow.com/2021/ ... ial-day-2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
the journalist who was behind Rosenbaum, Richie McGinniss, revealed that Rosenbaum let loose “one of the scariest screams I ever heard, yelling ‘f*** you,” and dove for Kyle Rittenhouse’s gun,” right before he was shot, according to the Richards.
The prosecution made a big deal out of an FBI spy-type plane video that captured figures in infrared during the shooting from up high.

In opening statements, Binger even claimed that Rittenhouse was the person who chased Rosenbaum first before Rosenbaum started chasing Rittenhouse, leading to the shooting. This sounds significant because it’s an attempt to paint Rittenhouse as an aggressor, which could weaken a self-defense argument and was previously unknown. The only thing known before day 1 of the trial was that Rosenbaum is seen on video CHASING RITTENHOUSE.
But… bizarrely… when the prosecutor called FBI agent Brandon Cramin to the stand, the agent’s testimony was cut off before anyone even established who the infrared figures were in the video. This is apparently so top secret that the judge cut off the audio and video to the FBI agent’s testimony. However, a pool report from a journalist in the courtroom gave the following bizarre account (in the pool reporter’s words):

Prosecutors said they were done questioning the FBI agent before they ever identified anyone in the grainy footage or explaining the significance of it to the Rittenhouse case. They will likely circle back to the video later in the presentation.

The defense then began cross-examination. During cross-examination, when the defense asked for the tail number of the two-man plane, prosecutors objected. The judge then asked the attorneys to step forward for a sidebar on the issue.

The judge then asked jurors to leave the courtroom as they continued to discuss the video taken by the FBI agent in the surveillance plane. Defense lawyer Mark Richards told the judge he believes there was other video taken by the FBI that’s no longer available.

Richards said he was incredulous that the FBI could take video that captured alleged homicides and then got rid of that video.
The defense attorney said Grosskreutz told police he lost his gun prior to confronting Rittenhouse; however, video and photos show he did have a gun when he confronted Rittenhouse. “He had a gun in his hand,” Richards said. He also told them that he was trying to stop Huber “from beating Kyle” with the skateboard.
even the prosecution admits Grosskreutz was moving toward Rittenhouse when shot and was armed. The prosecution really tried to make no argument for why this shooting was not self-defense. Furthermore, video showed that Grosskreutz approached Rittenhouse another time.
Photos show that Huber got a hand on Rittenhouse’s gun. The defense is building a strong case that Huber (and Rosenbaum) were trying to disarm Rittenhouse. While it’s widely known that Huber struck Rittenhouse with a skateboard, it wasn’t as clear before that he actually had a hand on Rittenhouse’s gun, which Richards proved through photographic evidence on day 1.
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Re: Kenosha

Post by catfish86 »

What is amazing is that these prosecutors make the claims they do when the videos and photos clearly contradict everything said. At some point either these guys get a hefty ethics complaint. I support law enforcement and prosecutors BUT cases like these HAVE to have consequences. Then you have law enforcement agencies destroying evidence. Hence asking for tail numbers of aircraft because at some point the defense did some homework and knew there was more than one aircraft and video.
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Re: Kenosha

Post by catfish86 »

Here is a video of Rosenbaum's behavior earlier: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS22w8H ... Management

Typical: There is also a news report of Kyle's attorney using the N word... neglected to mention he did so as a direct quote of Rosenbaum yelling at armed persons in front of a business. And the media wants us to believe the crowd was chanting lets go Brandon...
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Re: Kenosha

Post by M-Quigley »

catfish86 wrote:What is amazing is that these prosecutors make the claims they do when the videos and photos clearly contradict everything said. At some point either these guys get a hefty ethics complaint. I support law enforcement and prosecutors BUT cases like these HAVE to have consequences. Then you have law enforcement agencies destroying evidence. Hence asking for tail numbers of aircraft because at some point the defense did some homework and knew there was more than one aircraft and video.
Unless all the members of the jury are total morons at least one of them should see this doesn't support the prosecutors argument. If that's the case why complain about the opposition when they're making your case for you. :roll:
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Re: Kenosha

Post by Sevens »

Apparently one of the jurors got the boot when he was caught making a joke in reference to Jacob Blake.

Dumb.
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Re: Kenosha

Post by Bruenor »

What's that saying.. A Prosecuting attorney should never ask a witness a question when they don't 100% know how they will answer.. I'm sure that's just a 'TV/Movie thing' but still. Ooops. Video is at link

https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/11/t ... ly-caller/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The direct questioning of STATE witness Richard McGinnis by ADA Binger was an absolute trainwreck for the prosecution–and, of course, the jury watched it all happen in real-time.

UPDATE: To provide some context, for more than 12 minutes ADA Binger tried to get McGinnis to testify that Rosenbaum was already falling to the ground when Rittenhouse began shooting him–in other words, that Rittenhouse simply executed Rosenbaum by shooting him in the back when he was helplessly falling.

The actual exchange is in the video, so you can watch it for yourself, but a reasonable paraphrase would go something like this:

Binger: So Rittenhouse shot Rosenbaum, in the back, as he was falling, correct?

McGinnis: No, Rittenhouse didn’t fire until Rosenbaum charged and lunged at him.

Binger: So he shot him as he was falling?

McGinnis: No, not falling, lunging.

Binger: So you’re saying he shot him while he was falling?

McGinnis: No, that’s not my testimony. Lunging.

This is NOT how it’s supposed to be done, folks.
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Re: Kenosha

Post by M-Quigley »

I like how the judge in this case is instructing jurors not to call the bullet recipients "victims" or "alleged victims". IMHO all that does is give an impression in the jurors mind that they are somehow less or not responsible for what happened to them.
The prosecution surely wouldn't like it if they were more accurately referred to as "attackers."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4CY3yQ8Xxs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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