Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
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- catfish86
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Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
In Ohio, as a business owner, I have had police involved in ordering people not to come back twice. Both times I was told consistently that nothing is done with the past but once they are warned then they can be arrested if they return.
I did a google search on Georgia and it is about the same. If there was a no trespass sign, maybe a misdemeanor. There was no damage, stolen property nor any PROOF of intent to commit a crime. As stated earlier, wandering onto a construction site is not proof of an intent to commit a crime.
One fact in the wikipedia page is that Arbery actually lived a couple of blocks from the construction. He was likely being curious about a neighbor's house under construction. Being nosy is not a crime, especially such that you need to grab a shotgun and a pistol, load up into two vehicles and track the guy down to ask him some questions.
I did a google search on Georgia and it is about the same. If there was a no trespass sign, maybe a misdemeanor. There was no damage, stolen property nor any PROOF of intent to commit a crime. As stated earlier, wandering onto a construction site is not proof of an intent to commit a crime.
One fact in the wikipedia page is that Arbery actually lived a couple of blocks from the construction. He was likely being curious about a neighbor's house under construction. Being nosy is not a crime, especially such that you need to grab a shotgun and a pistol, load up into two vehicles and track the guy down to ask him some questions.
God,
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.
Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.
Gun control is racist.
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.
Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.
Gun control is racist.
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Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
Really?? Quoting wikipedia and jumping to conclusions much?catfish86 wrote:In Ohio, as a business owner, I have had police involved in ordering people not to come back twice. Both times I was told consistently that nothing is done with the past but once they are warned then they can be arrested if they return.
I did a google search on Georgia and it is about the same. If there was a no trespass sign, maybe a misdemeanor. There was no damage, stolen property nor any PROOF of intent to commit a crime. As stated earlier, wandering onto a construction site is not proof of an intent to commit a crime.
One fact in the wikipedia page is that Arbery actually lived a couple of blocks from the construction. He was likely being curious about a neighbor's house under construction. Being nosy is not a crime, especially such that you need to grab a shotgun and a pistol, load up into two vehicles and track the guy down to ask him some questions.
I've caught a couple youths breaking into my garage a few years back, they had gotten in 2 months before and stole my ATV which I got back later that night. I knew that they'd be back as they weren't successful. Using your expert analysis they were probably "being curious" or "nosy" as you put it.
Whatever they were doing they won't be doing it again.
I think that before we jump to conclusions we should amass more evidence from perhaps a trial.
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- Bruenor
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Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
There's a difference between a house under construction that isn't locked up may not even have doors or windows yet, or if it does it's not locked up, and a house and outbuildings on a property that someone is residing on. I don't believe anyone was advocating that it's OK to go into a property and look around when someone is in residence.
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"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
- Thomas Paine
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem."
- Thomas Jefferson
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
- Thomas Paine
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem."
- Thomas Jefferson
- catfish86
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Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
Thank you Bruenor, you hit my intentions dead on. That is a good point though that there is a difference with inhabited property as opposed to vacant. Bear, you stated it right on as well, the youths were breaking in. You do have a point that we really have no ideas what Aubery's intentions were, but neither did the guys who tracked him down in a pickup with shotguns and pistols. We also don't know if the McMichael's intentions were tainted by racism or a warped sense of their place in the justice system.
But I am learning from this that one should not put oneself unnecessarily in a position to do something stupid. For one thing, the man's decision to get out of the truck with the shotgun was not a good one, escalating the situation into a struggle for the shotgun. Again, three white guys pulling up on a black man with shotguns and pistols telling him they want to "talk" to him. Who among us being the black guy would not assume they were about to die?
But I am learning from this that one should not put oneself unnecessarily in a position to do something stupid. For one thing, the man's decision to get out of the truck with the shotgun was not a good one, escalating the situation into a struggle for the shotgun. Again, three white guys pulling up on a black man with shotguns and pistols telling him they want to "talk" to him. Who among us being the black guy would not assume they were about to die?
God,
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.
Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.
Gun control is racist.
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.
Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.
Gun control is racist.
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Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
What if it was 3 white guys with shotguns and pistols, wearing blue costumes ?
- pirateguy191
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Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
machinegunkelly wrote:What if it was 3 white guys with shotguns and pistols, wearing blue costumes ?
You tell us.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem." - Ronald Reagan
"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote." ~ Mike Vanderboegh
NRA member, NRA basic pistol instructor, DBACB
"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote." ~ Mike Vanderboegh
NRA member, NRA basic pistol instructor, DBACB
- catfish86
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Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
I think he would have handed them candy and told them their costumes were cute...
God,
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.
Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.
Gun control is racist.
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.
Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.
Gun control is racist.
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Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
I agree that the two morons chasing after a guy running down the street was stupid. I can also understand snooping around a construction sight because I did the same at an apartment complex next door to a friends house, but I was 9 or 10. So we have two people doing something that is incredibly stupid by chasing the guy that did something stupid by going into a house under construction.catfish86 wrote:Thank you Bruenor, you hit my intentions dead on. That is a good point though that there is a difference with inhabited property as opposed to vacant. Bear, you stated it right on as well, the youths were breaking in. You do have a point that we really have no ideas what Aubery's intentions were, but neither did the guys who tracked him down in a pickup with shotguns and pistols. We also don't know if the McMichael's intentions were tainted by racism or a warped sense of their place in the justice system.
But I am learning from this that one should not put oneself unnecessarily in a position to do something stupid. For one thing, the man's decision to get out of the truck with the shotgun was not a good one, escalating the situation into a struggle for the shotgun. Again, three white guys pulling up on a black man with shotguns and pistols telling him they want to "talk" to him. Who among us being the black guy would not assume they were about to die?
Do I think that they were right? NO! Do I think that Mr. Aubery should have been shot? NO! I'm not defending the McMichaels actions at all.
I do however think that Mr. Aubery should have stopped and not tried to take the shotgun.
I've watched the video multiple times as I'm sure that you have too and I know that I can't put myself in Mr. Aubrey's shoes as I'm not black with two armed white guys chasing me.
I'm curious to know if the older McMichaels recognized Mr. Aubery from his previous dealings with him in the prior case and vice versa.On the latter we'll never know.
To sum up what I posted about earlier, mistakes were made by all three parties involved. One life was ended just as it was starting and potentially two others might spend there lives incarcerated. I just think that we should reserve judgement until more facts are presented, I don't know the ins and outs of Georgia laws and can't judge what happened in a short crappy video.
NRA Endowment Member
OFCC Member
"Life is tough, its even tougher when you're stupid"- John Wayne
http://theoldtimeway.blogspot.com/
OFCC Member
"Life is tough, its even tougher when you're stupid"- John Wayne
http://theoldtimeway.blogspot.com/
- Bruenor
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Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
apparently they ran into the same guy 2 days earlier.. the shooting happened on the 23rd
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -shot.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.tmz.com/2020/05/13/ahmaud-a ... n-isolate/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -shot.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Seems the site was posted no trespassing. Myself and others have said its common to enter a construction site to look around, but I would not if it were posted. Doesn't really change anything in this situation though, just another small detail.Now neighbor Diego Perez says the two men had already approached their victim on February 11, after spotting him at the same construction site Arbery is thought to have looked round on the day of his death.
Perez told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution: 'Travis saw him in the yard and Travis stopped. He confronted (the man) halfway into the yard. He said (the man) reached for his waistband, and Travis got spooked and went down the road.'
Travis is said to have returned with his father, who was armed and who had called the local police.
The owner of the home that is under construction, that is not involved in the incident at all is now receiving death threats...The home under construction is described in recent listings as a vacant lot, 0.5 acres in size on the banks of the Little Satilla River: the perfect spot for the 'river front home of your dreams'.
Current owner, Larry English Jr., bought it in June 2016 for $120,000 and has built the majority of the structure which has a sign posted outside, warning: 'Trespassers will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.'
https://www.tmz.com/2020/05/13/ahmaud-a ... n-isolate/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The father and son accused of murdering Ahmaud Arbery are sitting ducks in the jail as they await prosecution -- and because of that ... the men are being isolated behind bars.
Glynn County Undersheriff Ron Corbett tells TMZ ... Travis and Gregory McMichael are being housed in a separate wing of the Glynn County Detention Center away from the general population ... for their own safety. In other words, they're in protective custody.
Μολὼν λαβέ
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
- Thomas Paine
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem."
- Thomas Jefferson
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
- Thomas Paine
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem."
- Thomas Jefferson
- catfish86
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Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
If you scroll to the bottom of the daily mail link, it has an interesting graphic of the neighborhood. Aubery's house is literally around the block from the construction site. I find it hard to believe in such a small town they did not all know each other by sight if not by name.
Also instructive is that it is a short walk and therefore, like a lot of joggers may be in the habit of stretching, walking for a bit then starting a run. Then he started his run after being in the house. BTW, there are stills of him actually in the building and it is pretty much studs.
Then he runs around the bend and the McMichaels block the intersection. He then does double back after which the viral video picks up. The pickup turns around and continues after him, again blocking him when Travis gets out with the shotgun. That answers two questions as to 1) why he didn't just go back the other way (he already had) and 2) why he felt the need to struggle for the shotgun (these people weren't going to leave him alone).
Also instructive is that it is a short walk and therefore, like a lot of joggers may be in the habit of stretching, walking for a bit then starting a run. Then he started his run after being in the house. BTW, there are stills of him actually in the building and it is pretty much studs.
Then he runs around the bend and the McMichaels block the intersection. He then does double back after which the viral video picks up. The pickup turns around and continues after him, again blocking him when Travis gets out with the shotgun. That answers two questions as to 1) why he didn't just go back the other way (he already had) and 2) why he felt the need to struggle for the shotgun (these people weren't going to leave him alone).
God,
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.
Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.
Gun control is racist.
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.
Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.
Gun control is racist.
- Bruenor
- Posts: 7306
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Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
Interesting..
https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/texts- ... ABCT2EL2Y/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/texts- ... ABCT2EL2Y/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
police in south Georgia enlisted help from one of the suspects accused of murdering Ahmaud Arbery to keep an eye on a construction site the homeowner reported trespassers on.
Channel 2′s Tony Thomas obtained text messages sent by a Glynn County police officer to Larry English, who owned the construction site where Arbery appeared on surveillance video before he was shot and killed.
The texts instructed English, who lives two hours away from the property, to call Gregory McMichael if any issues came up with people caught trespassing.
“Greg is retired law enforcement and also a retired investigator from the DA’s office,” was the message Officer Robert Rash texted to English on Dec. 20, 2019. Rush also included McMichael’s phone number and conveyed the message that McMichael "said please call him day or night when you get action on your camera.”
Not sure what "informal deputization" entails or means.“When I saw (the texts), I immediately understood that an organization had been developing in that neighborhood since at least December,” Graddy wrote. “It appears that Gregory McMichael had been informally “deputized” by the Glynn County Police Department.”
Μολὼν λαβέ
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
- Thomas Paine
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem."
- Thomas Jefferson
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
- Thomas Paine
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem."
- Thomas Jefferson
- catfish86
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Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
That video showed a parade of other people also nosing around the site including a couple, two kids and a couple of different black males other than Aubery. This crowd is so involved in group think they don't realize what actually happened here. What is a good lesson here is that attorneys are not perfect...it was the defendant's own attorney that leaked the video.
Also, there is a news report that the sister of the McMichaels is a true crime junkie and shared pictures of the body early on before the viral video. A side tidbit is that she has dated black guys and the brother and father were welcoming to the boyfriends.
I suspect this is more a "law and order vigilante" than solely a race thing with the caveat that even though they may not have a hood in their closet they did see fit to track the black guy but not the white kids.
Another bodycam came out when Aubery refused to allow officers to search his car.
Also, there is a news report that the sister of the McMichaels is a true crime junkie and shared pictures of the body early on before the viral video. A side tidbit is that she has dated black guys and the brother and father were welcoming to the boyfriends.
I suspect this is more a "law and order vigilante" than solely a race thing with the caveat that even though they may not have a hood in their closet they did see fit to track the black guy but not the white kids.
Another bodycam came out when Aubery refused to allow officers to search his car.
God,
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.
Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.
Gun control is racist.
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.
Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.
Gun control is racist.
- DOA33
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Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
I believe this wasn't race related at all either. Unless you have evidence or they confess they did it based on color of skin then that aspect should be dropped. I did see that video, they approached him based on he was parked there and the area was considered a hot drug area. He refused to allow the cops to search his car and at one point one of the cops got a little trigger happy with the taser but malfunctioned. I don't know was it because he tried to go back into his car the 2nd time that the cop tried to taser him? It ended with him just walking away without his car.catfish86 wrote:That video showed a parade of other people also nosing around the site including a couple, two kids and a couple of different black males other than Aubery. This crowd is so involved in group think they don't realize what actually happened here. What is a good lesson here is that attorneys are not perfect...it was the defendant's own attorney that leaked the video.
Also, there is a news report that the sister of the McMichaels is a true crime junkie and shared pictures of the body early on before the viral video. A side tidbit is that she has dated black guys and the brother and father were welcoming to the boyfriends.
I suspect this is more a "law and order vigilante" than solely a race thing with the caveat that even though they may not have a hood in their closet they did see fit to track the black guy but not the white kids.
Another bodycam came out when Aubery refused to allow officers to search his car.
Open Carry, shhh it's a dirty secret.
- catfish86
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Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
The disturbing part about that car stop is one should not be getting tazed for essentially refusing to consent to a search, which is a constitutional right.
God,
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.
Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.
Gun control is racist.
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the Wisdom to know the difference.
Carrying a gun is a right, not a crime.
Gun control is racist.
-
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Re: Citizens Arrest case in point for caution
Found a site that makes some interesting comparisons between this case and the Martin-Zimmerman shooting.
http://lawofselfdefense.com/arbery" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(A lot of the site is paywalled but the Arbery stuff is not, at least at this time.)
For example:
Martin's photo was always the sweet-faced young kid; Zimmerman's was always a mug shot.
They're doing the same thing here with Arbery and the McMichaels.
Other photos of Arbery that show him in a poor light never make the news.
http://lawofselfdefense.com/arbery" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(A lot of the site is paywalled but the Arbery stuff is not, at least at this time.)
For example:
Martin's photo was always the sweet-faced young kid; Zimmerman's was always a mug shot.
They're doing the same thing here with Arbery and the McMichaels.
Other photos of Arbery that show him in a poor light never make the news.