Buffalo Mass Shooting was a hate crime

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Bruenor
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Re: Buffalo Mass Shooting was a hate crime

Post by Bruenor »

M-Quigley wrote:After I heard the initial news story I thought here it comes, more calls for gun control, particularly against rifles, and how CC is somehow useless for anyone because there was an ex cop/guard there who could see the guy was wearing body and yet still fired 2 rounds center mass, and I am hearing some calls for gun control but most of what I'm hearing on Monday mn on the news are calls for restrictions on social media instead.
.
for some fun reading see how well the hate incident logging is going in the UK. seems to be chewing up the resources so they are less able to address actual crimes..

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ystem.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Police have recorded hate-speech allegations against more than 120,000 people – yet cannot identify a single crime that has been prevented by the exercise.

Critics say the controversial practice of logging 'non-crime hate incidents', even after officers decided what was said or posted online did not break any laws, has a 'chilling effect on free speech'.
'Non-crime hate incident reports (introduced in 2014) do not appear to have any usefulness as a crime prevention tool, but what they do have is a chilling effect on free speech because they make people think twice before saying or posting something on social media in the fear that it could land them with a criminal record.

'These reports have allowed the police to become weaponised by woke activists who seek to attack and shut people up if they dare to express any views that they do not agree with.'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/arti ... ILLER.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Anyone who has called the police to report the sort of low-level crime that blights daily life will know how hard it is to get more than a token response.

Police forces across the UK no longer even pretend to be interested in vandalism, burglaries, fly-tipping or drug dealing by teenagers in parks.
But as research this month reveals, there is one certain way to stir the police into action: report a fellow citizen for saying something, or making some comment on social media, that constitutes an ‘incident’ — or a Non Crime Hate Incident (NCHI).
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bignflnut
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Re: Buffalo Mass Shooting was a hate crime

Post by bignflnut »

Of all the wrenching similarities between the massacres at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh, the Walmart in El Paso, Texas, and the Tops supermarket in Buffalo, New York, one stands out most starkly: Each gun used was purchased legally.

From 1966 to 2019, 77% of mass shooters obtained the weapons they used in their crimes through legal purchases, according to a comprehensive survey of law enforcement data, academic papers and news accounts compiled by the National Institute of Justice, the research wing of the Justice Department.

SNIP

Robert Donald, the owner of the store in Endicott who sold Gendron his gun, was stunned when federal law enforcement officials contacted him about the purchase.

He said nothing about the young man raised any suspicions; in fact, he hardly remembered him at all. But he told The New York Times on Sunday that “any gun can be easily modified if you really want to do it,” when asked about the illegal modifications Gendron made to the Bushmaster.
Guns can't be controlled.
(*Whispering* Neither can people)
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EricTheBald
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Re: Buffalo Mass Shooting was a hate crime

Post by EricTheBald »

Here's some cold blooded math...

The FBI collects data on “active shooter incidents,” which it defines as “one or more individuals actively engaged in killing or attempting to kill people in a populated area.” Using the FBI’s definition, 38 people – excluding the shooters – died in such incidents in 2020.

Assuming a population of 350 million, that's approximately 0.00001% of the US Population.

That's about 1/100th of the deaths from Epilepsy.
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docachna
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Re: Buffalo Mass Shooting was a hate crime

Post by docachna »

M-Quigley wrote:
.....When I say "trained" I don't just mean being able to shoot mere center of mass at 5 yards on a static target on a square range, like most CCW classes. If it's obvious or if you suspect body armor you shouldn't waste time and rounds just pumping bullets into the chest stomach or back, even if it is the largest target. If you can't hit the neck or head, there is plenty of real estate below the belt, including the thighs. It won't immediately incapacitate the active shooter but it's a heck of a lot better than wasting rounds hitting body armor.
There have been mass shootings that have been documented to have been stopped or interfered with simply because the active shooter got wounded.
Back when I was still on the street (flintlock rifles and all that), my rangemaster at my first academy promoted tac-tac shooting (don't know if they still teach it or not). He pounded into our heads - first pair of shots is in center mass, second pair of shots starts at the junk and goes downward. Said the same thing - "You never know FOR SURE what you're trying to shoot through." RIP Okie Miles.
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Brian D.
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Re: Buffalo Mass Shooting was a hate crime

Post by Brian D. »

docachna wrote:
M-Quigley wrote:
.....When I say "trained" I don't just mean being able to shoot mere center of mass at 5 yards on a static target on a square range, like most CCW classes. If it's obvious or if you suspect body armor you shouldn't waste time and rounds just pumping bullets into the chest stomach or back, even if it is the largest target. If you can't hit the neck or head, there is plenty of real estate below the belt, including the thighs. It won't immediately incapacitate the active shooter but it's a heck of a lot better than wasting rounds hitting body armor.
There have been mass shootings that have been documented to have been stopped or interfered with simply because the active shooter got wounded.
Back when I was still on the street (flintlock rifles and all that), my rangemaster at my first academy promoted tac-tac shooting (don't know if they still teach it or not). He pounded into our heads - first pair of shots is in center mass, second pair of shots starts at the junk and goes downward. Said the same thing - "You never know FOR SURE what you're trying to shoot through." RIP Okie Miles.
Years ago (early 1980s) I participated as a "good guy" role player in some training for the county SWAT team. In one scenario the team leader pulled me aside and said "this time you're going to play an off duty cop caught up with his girlfriend and others in a hostage situation. See what happens, this is a new twist." Nobody else knew he gave me a revolver with paint bullets, badge for my pocket, etc.

The bad guy role players were getting a little lazy because they didn't search anybody much so when the time was right I "attacked" and dusted all three of them, and got the gun and myself down on the floor before the good guys could enter. Afterwards made for some interesting discussion. A few years later the first Die Hard movie came out and thought to myself "I was John McClane before Bruce Willis!"
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

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Brian D.
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Re: Buffalo Mass Shooting was a hate crime

Post by Brian D. »

In fairness I've been "killed" in force on force training more than a couple times. You learn, move on, and realize you really don't want to ever be in a for real situation like these.
Quit worrying, hide your gun well, shut up, and CARRY that handgun!

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M-Quigley
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Re: Buffalo Mass Shooting was a hate crime

Post by M-Quigley »

Brian D. wrote: I've never tried to figure out what kind of animal I might be. :lol: But your post makes some excellent points.
If I absolutely had to say what kind of animal I might be, most of the time the older I get the more I identify with a koala. :lol:
M-Quigley
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Re: Buffalo Mass Shooting was a hate crime

Post by M-Quigley »

Bruenor wrote:
M-Quigley wrote:
Brian D. wrote:We were talking about this yesterday, where a group of us shoot together most Sundays. Several drills involved transitioning to head shots, even one hand only. Of course, getting yourself and loved ones the heck out of Dodge might be better, but that's not always possible.
I think that a lot depends on where the defender is when a shooting starts. If I'm just a customer in the back of a store and a mass shooting starts in the front, for me to go forward and try to confront the shooter might only make things worse. There's going to be police response, maybe other concealed carriers who won't know who you are and you won't know if you see them if they're other defenders or an accomplice of the active shooter. My best options are like you said, getting my loved ones and myself out. OTOH, if the active shooting starts near where I'm at my best option for survival might be to take cover and try to take out the active shooter. I don't want to sound paranoid but sometimes I've gone to a store and when shopping or doing an exercise walk in the winter, look around me and think, "if something bad were to happen right now, where is the nearest concealment or cover? Where are the nearest exits, even if they do say "employees only" ? What part of the store is my wife likely in, compared to where I'm at? It might not even be a shooter it might be a fire or something, so knowing where things are could be important. It's not paranoia it just situational awareness.

Someone was trying to sell his tactical classes once made a statement to some prospective customer that you're either a sheepdog or a sheep. :roll: If I'm going to be compared to an animal I prefer a porcupine, and an aged one at that.
Don't forget the walmart incident where the concealed carrier went to confront the shooter, only to be shot in the back of the head by the shooters girlfriend/wife. So yeah number 1 for me is exit strategy.
Oh I didn't forget, in fact I was thinking about this very story when I typed the bolded. In addition to the male suspect having an accomplice, what happened prior to the concealed carrier confronting the male suspect wasn't exactly a mass shooting at the Walmart itself, although it could've easily turned into one. According to the press conference, the male suspect fired a round into the ceiling and told everyone to get out, the police were coming.

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/vegas ... ge-n127361" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On a side note, when I was trying to find this link to refresh my memory of the details of the crime, I tried to do a google search and everything that came up was from the Brady campaign, the VPC, or so called news organization articles all saying pretty much the same thing, either concealed carry doesn't really work to stop crime, or actually increase crime rates, or concealed carriers are in fact murderers. (the VPC stuff) It didn't seem to matter what keywords I put in, couldn't find the story since I didn't have the exact names of the suspect or the CC victim. I had to find the article using dogpile.
Last edited by M-Quigley on Wed May 18, 2022 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
M-Quigley
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Re: Buffalo Mass Shooting was a hate crime

Post by M-Quigley »

docachna wrote:
M-Quigley wrote:
.....When I say "trained" I don't just mean being able to shoot mere center of mass at 5 yards on a static target on a square range, like most CCW classes. If it's obvious or if you suspect body armor you shouldn't waste time and rounds just pumping bullets into the chest stomach or back, even if it is the largest target. If you can't hit the neck or head, there is plenty of real estate below the belt, including the thighs. It won't immediately incapacitate the active shooter but it's a heck of a lot better than wasting rounds hitting body armor.
There have been mass shootings that have been documented to have been stopped or interfered with simply because the active shooter got wounded.
Back when I was still on the street (flintlock rifles and all that), my rangemaster at my first academy promoted tac-tac shooting (don't know if they still teach it or not). He pounded into our heads - first pair of shots is in center mass, second pair of shots starts at the junk and goes downward. Said the same thing - "You never know FOR SURE what you're trying to shoot through." RIP Okie Miles.
Just me personally, if I have reason to believe that the attacker is wearing some form of body armor, I'm not wasting my first shots anywhere that armor is likely to cover.
M-Quigley
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Re: Buffalo Mass Shooting was a hate crime

Post by M-Quigley »

Brian D. wrote: Years ago (early 1980s) I participated as a "good guy" role player in some training for the county SWAT team. In one scenario the team leader pulled me aside and said "this time you're going to play an off duty cop caught up with his girlfriend and others in a hostage situation. See what happens, this is a new twist." Nobody else knew he gave me a revolver with paint bullets, badge for my pocket, etc.

The bad guy role players were getting a little lazy because they didn't search anybody much so when the time was right I "attacked" and dusted all three of them, and got the gun and myself down on the floor before the good guys could enter. Afterwards made for some interesting discussion. A few years later the first Die Hard movie came out and thought to myself "I was John McClane before Bruce Willis!"
You should've been on Jim Cirillo's team, he knew a little about that for real. :)
M-Quigley
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Re: Buffalo Mass Shooting was a hate crime

Post by M-Quigley »

A little update: ABC reported on Saturday that the guard fired 11 shots at the suspect, and the time involved that it took for the suspect to murder the guard enabled some of the people inside to escape. Don't know who the source was for that, because it's very difficult to get even partial video, either the active shooters or surveillance video of the encounter, so someone just has to take the word of whoever the alleged source the news media is using I guess. It's not like any analysis is going to be on the active self protection site anytime soon. Anyway, it's still being reported that the guard actually hit the suspect twice, with both shots hitting the body armor.
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