Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWine

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JustaShooter
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Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWine

Post by JustaShooter »

A weakened version of SB 215, which legalizes unlicensed concealed carry, has passed the House and was almost immediately concurred by the Senate, and now heads to Governor DeWine's desk. What was passed can no longer in my pinion even remotely be called constitutional carry, it is at best a form of unlicensed carry. What was a clean and desirable bill has been corrupted.

If this becomes law, here are the changes:

You can only legally carry a concealed handgun if you are:
  • Not legally prohibited from possessing or receiving a firearm under 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1) to (9) or under section 2923.13 of the Revised Code or any other Revised Code provision;
    and
  • Satisfy all of the criteria listed in divisions (D) (1)(a) to (j), (m), (p), (q), and (s) of section 2923.125 of the Revised Code. (This does not apply to active duty military carrying proof of equivalent training.)
(Essentially, you have to qualify for a CHL, you just don't have to take the class, apply, and pay for the license. How in the world a LEO is going to determine this on the side of the road is beyond me.)

In addition:
  • Notification is only required if asked.
  • If you have an actual license you no longer need to carry your CHL with you.
  • You can get previous notification violations expunged.
  • Failure to notify is now an M2 instead of M1 and you no longer lose your CHL.
That's the extent of the changes. They removed the provision that prohibited Terry stops for people printing or otherwise suspected of carrying concealed (likely because there are a *lot* more restrictions now.)

So, although a step forward, I find the amended changes distasteful and wonder how long it will take to correct them.

Link to bill: https://search-prod.lis.state.oh.us/sol ... format=pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by Chuck »

Is notification still "promptly" or is it upon being asked?
Ain't activism fun?

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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by ashtabula »

How will no permit affect being in a school safety zone or a school parking lot?
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by JustaShooter »

Chuck wrote:Is notification still "promptly" or is it upon being asked?
Upon being asked.
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by JustaShooter »

ashtabula wrote:How will no permit affect being in a school safety zone or a school parking lot?
You are treated as having a license so same rules apply at the state level. Federal Gun Free School Zone Act still applies to those without an actual license - but you'd have to screw up pretty badly for the Feds to get involved...
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by pirateguy191 »

The pay structure for the CHL remains the same?
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by M-Quigley »

JustaShooter wrote:A weakened version of SB 215, which legalizes unlicensed concealed carry, has passed the House and was almost immediately concurred by the Senate, and now heads to Governor DeWine's desk. What was passed can no longer in my pinion even remotely be called constitutional carry, it is at best a form of unlicensed carry. What was a clean and desirable bill has been corrupted.

If this becomes law, here are the changes:

You can only legally carry a concealed handgun if you are:
  • Not legally prohibited from possessing or receiving a firearm under 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(1) to (9) or under section 2923.13 of the Revised Code or any other Revised Code provision;
    and
  • Satisfy all of the criteria listed in divisions (D) (1)(a) to (j), (m), (p), (q), and (s) of section 2923.125 of the Revised Code. (This does not apply to active duty military carrying proof of equivalent training.)
(Essentially, you have to qualify for a CHL, you just don't have to take the class, apply, and pay for the license. How in the world a LEO is going to determine this on the side of the road is beyond me.)

In addition:
  • Notification is only required if asked.
  • If you have an actual license you no longer need to carry your CHL with you.
  • You can get previous notification violations expunged.
  • Failure to notify is now an M2 instead of M1 and you no longer lose your CHL.
That's the extent of the changes. They removed the provision that prohibited Terry stops for people printing or otherwise suspected of carrying concealed (likely because there are a *lot* more restrictions now.)[/b]

So, although a step forward, I find the amended changes distasteful and wonder how long it will take to correct them.

Link to bill: https://search-prod.lis.state.oh.us/sol ... format=pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Sorry, I'm missing something here. What additional restrictions are in this bill that we don't already have now?
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by JustaShooter »

pirateguy191 wrote:The pay structure for the CHL remains the same?
Correct. No change to the licensing scheme.
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by JustaShooter »

M-Quigley wrote:Sorry, I'm missing something here. What additional restrictions are in this bill that we don't already have now?
Instead of a bill that would allow anyone 21 and over legally able to possess a handgun to also legally carry it concealed without a license as was the original bill, they chose to impose the same restrictions on unlicensed carry as we have on getting a CHL. So, your background cannot contain any of the disqualifying charges or convictions listed in the various sections of Ohio law.

So, the same people who cannot get a CHL due to things like F5 convictions, misdemeanor offenses of violence within the past 3 years, misdemeanor drug convictions, resisting arrest within the past 10 years, etc., won't be able to legally carry concealed under this law - but they can still possess firearms and can legally open carry them.

I see multiple issues with this: We regularly get people asking if they qualify for a CHL because they can't parse Ohio law well enough to understand if the issues in their background prevent them, or have flat-out forgotten about an issue or think it's been long enough it no longer counts, etc. And, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but LEADS doesn't contain adequate and up-to-date information for a LEO to make the call on the side of the road.

So, we still have work to do to fix the law if it goes into effect.
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by xpd54 »

JustaShooter wrote:
M-Quigley wrote:Sorry, I'm missing something here. What additional restrictions are in this bill that we don't already have now?
Instead of a bill that would allow anyone 21 and over legally able to possess a handgun to also legally carry it concealed without a license as was the original bill, they chose to impose the same restrictions on unlicensed carry as we have on getting a CHL. So, your background cannot contain any of the disqualifying charges or convictions listed in the various sections of Ohio law.

So, the same people who cannot get a CHL due to things like F5 convictions, misdemeanor offenses of violence within the past 3 years, misdemeanor drug convictions, resisting arrest within the past 10 years, etc., won't be able to legally carry concealed under this law - but they can still possess firearms and can legally open carry them.

I see multiple issues with this: We regularly get people asking if they qualify for a CHL because they can't parse Ohio law well enough to understand if the issues in their background prevent them, or have flat-out forgotten about an issue or think it's been long enough it no longer counts, etc. And, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but LEADS doesn't contain adequate and up-to-date information for a LEO to make the call on the side of the road.

So, we still have work to do to fix the law if it goes into effect.
Was looking at this over the last few weeks. It’s definitely gonna be a PITA for us. Especially following LEADS rules. I’m already working on a lesson plan to train my guys. The best thing about this bill if you ask me is the shift of burden for notification.
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by JustaShooter »

xpd54 wrote:Was looking at this over the last few weeks. It’s definitely gonna be a PITA for us. Especially following LEADS rules. I’m already working on a lesson plan to train my guys.
Can you fill us in on what that looks like? To what extent LEOs are going to be able to determine if a person without a CHL is allowed to legally carry concealed or in a vehicle, and whether they'll actively try to make the determination?
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by xpd54 »

JustaShooter wrote:
xpd54 wrote:Was looking at this over the last few weeks. It’s definitely gonna be a PITA for us. Especially following LEADS rules. I’m already working on a lesson plan to train my guys.
Can you fill us in on what that looks like? To what extent LEOs are going to be able to determine if a person without a CHL is allowed to legally carry concealed or in a vehicle, and whether they'll actively try to make the determination?
Sure thing. We currently get criminal history’s (we call them CCHs) by having our Dispatch run them. There may be a way for us to run them on the terminals in our cars, but I’ve never tried or been trained on how to do it. If we can’t (and I don’t think that would be allowed by our brass even if we were theoretically able to), then getting it from Dispatch is our only way to get that info. To further complicate things, Dispatch can’t give that information over the radio or phone (LEADS rule). Someone has to physically go get the hard copy and bring it to the Officer on scene. To complicate matters even more, if someone has a DV charge and it’s pled to something like disorderly conduct, the CCH may not actually give you enough information to figure out if that conviction actually puts someone under a disability. You may have to actually get your hands on the court documents to see what ORC section is on the court paperwork. Which more than likely isn’t available after hours. Ever wonder what happens on a delayed background check for a gun purchase? They (FBI) send a request to the original agency asking for a copy of the report so they can determine whether that misdemeanor arrest that is showing up on a CCH counts as a DV.

And to further complicate matters, they have now incorporated 18 USC 922(g) into the definition of a “qualifying adult”. Very few Ohio cops have any training on what makes a 922(g) disability (since it’s different that what is covered under Having Weapons Under Disability) or even the nature of the 2923.125 disqualifiers because we don’t deal with them. The Sheriff’s Offices do and only certain people within the SO handles CHLs.

So the bottom line is that this has made our job much more difficult if we actually try to determine whether someone is a “qualifying adult”. If they had any pro-gun LE input in this, whoever recommended something like this is an idiot. There’s even confusion amongst some Sheriff’s about this and they’re already trying to get clarification, at least according to my sources.

Hope all that makes sense.
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by JustaShooter »

xpd54 wrote:
JustaShooter wrote:
xpd54 wrote:Was looking at this over the last few weeks. It’s definitely gonna be a PITA for us. Especially following LEADS rules. I’m already working on a lesson plan to train my guys.
Can you fill us in on what that looks like? To what extent LEOs are going to be able to determine if a person without a CHL is allowed to legally carry concealed or in a vehicle, and whether they'll actively try to make the determination?
Sure thing. We currently get criminal history’s (we call them CCHs) by having our Dispatch run them. There may be a way for us to run them on the terminals in our cars, but I’ve never tried or been trained on how to do it. If we can’t (and I don’t think that would be allowed by our brass even if we were theoretically able to), then getting it from Dispatch is our only way to get that info. To further complicate things, Dispatch can’t give that information over the radio or phone (LEADS rule). Someone has to physically go get the hard copy and bring it to the Officer on scene. To complicate matters even more, if someone has a DV charge and it’s pled to something like disorderly conduct, the CCH may not actually give you enough information to figure out if that conviction actually puts someone under a disability. You may have to actually get your hands on the court documents to see what ORC section is on the court paperwork. Which more than likely isn’t available after hours. Ever wonder what happens on a delayed background check for a gun purchase? They (FBI) send a request to the original agency asking for a copy of the report so they can determine whether that misdemeanor arrest that is showing up on a CCH counts as a DV.

And to further complicate matters, they have now incorporated 18 USC 922(g) into the definition of a “qualifying adult”. Very few Ohio cops have any training on what makes a 922(g) disability (since it’s different that what is covered under Having Weapons Under Disability) or even the nature of the 2923.125 disqualifiers because we don’t deal with them. The Sheriff’s Offices do and only certain people within the SO handles CHLs.

So the bottom line is that this has made our job much more difficult if we actually try to determine whether someone is a “qualifying adult”. If they had any pro-gun LE input in this, whoever recommended something like this is an idiot. There’s even confusion amongst some Sheriff’s about this and they’re already trying to get clarification, at least according to my sources.

Hope all that makes sense.
It makes perfect sense and matches closely to what I suspected or already knew about LEADS and police procedures. Thank you!

As to who recommended something like this, as I understand it, this came as a result of pressure from the FOP and other law enforcement lobbying arms. Further proof those groups do not have the LEO on the street's best interests in mind and are clueless about what happens out there.
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by WeinerDog »

So if this passes, one who has no disqualifiers can open carry inside a car, correct ?
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Re: Weakened SB 215 (unlicensed carry) sent to Governor DeWi

Post by JustaShooter »

WeinerDog wrote:So if this passes, one who has no disqualifiers can open carry inside a car, correct ?
Correct, if this becomes law, anyone without disqualifiers will be able to carry concealed or openly anywhere a person with an actual CHL is able to.
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